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 5   
 6                 JOINT PUBLIC HEARING OF THE
 7                   TEXAS LOTTERY COMMISSION
 8                             AND
 9                  BINGO ADVISORY COMMITTEE
10   
11                      DECEMBER 20, 2004
12   
13   *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *
14   
15   
16   
17   
18             BE IT REMEMBERED that the TEXAS LOTTERY
19   COMMISSION and the BINGO ADVISORY COMMITTE held a
20   Public Hearing on the 20th day of December, 2004, at
21   9:00 a.m., before Kimberlye A. Furr, RPR, CSR in and
22   for the State of Texas, reported by machine shorthand,
23   at the offices of the Texas Lottery Commission, 611
24   East 6th Street, Auditorium, Austin, Texas, 78701,
25   whereupon the following proceedings were had:
0002
 1   
 2                         APPEARANCES
 3   
 4   TEXAS LOTTERY COMMISSION CHAIRMAN:
 5   
                Mr. C. Tom Clowe, Junior
 6   
 7   BINGO ADVISORY COMMITTEE CHAIRPERSON:
 8              Ms. Suzanne Taylor
 9   Commissioners:
10              Mr. Rolando Olvera
11              Mr. James Cox, Junior
12   
13   Committee Members:
14              Ms. Kimberly L. Kiplin
15              Mr. Billy Atkins
16              Mr. Daniel Moore
17              Mr. Larry Whittington
18              Ms. Kimberly Rogers
19              Mr. Mario Manio
20              Mr. Pete Pavlovsky
21              Mr. John (Jack) Dougherty
22   
23   Facilitator:  Carol Lauder
24   
25   
0003
 1                  CHAIRMAN CLOWE:  It is 9:00 a.m.,
 2   December the 20th 2004.  I'm going to call this meeting
 3   of the Texas Lottery Commission to order.  Commissioner
 4   Cox is here; Commissioner Olvera is here.  My name is
 5   Tom Clowe.  I'm going to ask everyone to turn off your
 6   cell phones and your pagers.  We don't want to be
 7   interrupted by those noises during this meeting.
 8                  This is, as the agenda calls for, a
 9   joint meeting between the Texas Lottery Commission and
10   the Bingo Advisory Committee.  The Chair is here.
11                  And, Madame Chair, I'll ask you to
12   convene your meeting, if you will, please.
13                  MS. TAYLOR:  We'd like to call this
14   meeting of the Bingo Advisory Committee to order.  We
15   do have a quorum.
16                  CHAIRMAN CLOWE:  Thank you, ma'am.
17                  And Billy Atkins, who is the Director of
18   the Charitable Division, will make an opening remark
19   and introduce our facilitator.
20                  MR. ATKINS:  Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
21                  Commissioners, members, when the
22   Commission began the process of talking about this
23   joint meeting, one of the things that the staff did in
24   order to help make this meeting as productive and
25   meaningful as possible was to reach out to Carol
0004
 1   Lauder.  Carol was recommended to us by Sandy Joseph in
 2   our legal division who's had the opportunity to work
 3   with Carol in the past, and I'd just like to thank
 4   Sandy for her recommendation.
 5                  Carol is a 26-year employee of the
 6   comptroller's office.  She currently serves as the
 7   manager of the Tobacco Grant Program.  For four years,
 8   she oversaw the controller's renaissance project, which
 9   is an internal agency-wide business process
10   re-engineering program.  Carol became a certified
11   professional facilitator this past June through the
12   International Association of facilitators.  She has
13   served as a formal facilitator for over 200 meetings.
14   Carol has served as a facilitator for organizations
15   such as the Texas Water Development Board, The Texas
16   Rail Road Commission, The Texas Workforce Commission,
17   the Human Resource Director Workshop for the state
18   auditor's office, and the Suzanne G. Coleman Breast
19   Cancer Foundation.  Finally, in the summer of 2002,
20   Carol participated in the event "Listening to the City"
21   in New York City where she served as one of many
22   facilitators of a table discussion concerning the
23   rebuilding of Ground Zero.
24                  CHAIRMAN CLOWE:  And before she begins,
25   I would like to make a comment about the format of this
0005
 1   meeting.  This is something unusual and I think
 2   somewhat rare.  I'm not sure that we've ever had a
 3   meeting where a facilitator entered into the process
 4   like we're going to do today.  On the one hand, we are
 5   conducting a public meeting that is open records and we
 6   are making a record with the recorder here.  We need to
 7   follow the rules of decorum and follow the rule's of
 8   order if that's necessary, on the one hand, to create
 9   the environment that will enable us to achieve
10   interface and the creation of ideas and thoughts and
11   some challenges, I hope.  We thought to have a
12   facilitator here to really run the meeting would be a
13   proper methodology to follow.
14                  She is, as Billy has said in her
15   introduction, very experienced and knowledgeable.
16   After meeting her and spending some time with her, I'm
17   very confident she'll do an excellent job.  We'll ask
18   everyone to follow her direction and allow her to be
19   effective at facilitating the meeting.  We plan to have
20   an opportunity at a time for everyone who has an
21   interest in this meeting and these activities to speak
22   and come on the record.
23                  Carol, with that, we are in your hands.
24                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  Thank you,
25   Commissioner.  I want to congratulate you for taking
0006
 1   this risk, if you will.  I'm really happy to be here.
 2                  I want you to know that the public is a
 3   part of the facilitation.  You are involved in every
 4   way in everything that we do with the exception of one
 5   agenda item, which I will go through.  All right.  The
 6   definition of --
 7                  How many people have been in a
 8   facilitating meeting?  Can I see a show of hands?
 9   Okay.  Some of you have and some of you have not.
10                  A facilitator serves as a neutral party.
11   I have no involvement in the content of the meeting, in
12   the opinions, or any decision making or problem
13   solving.  My role is purely to deal with the processes
14   that are used, to analyze information, to make
15   decisions, and to solve problems, so if you catch me
16   getting involved in any content, I need someone to say,
17   you're breaking the ground rule, the first ground rule.
18   Okay?  To facilitate is to make easier, to develop
19   processes that will improve efficiency and
20   effectiveness of decision making and problem solving
21   and to serve as a neutral party.
22                  The first thing we're going to do is do
23   some introductions of the people at the table.  And if
24   you would, please tell me your name and your license
25   class if you're on the BAC.  We'll start with the
0007
 1   commissioners.
 2                  COMMISSIONER OLVERA:  Good morning.  My
 3   name is Rolando Olvera.  I'm the commissioner with the
 4   Texas Lottery Commission.
 5                  CHAIRMAN CLOWE:  I'm Tom Clowe,
 6   commissioner at the Lottery Commission.
 7                  COMMISSIONER COX:  And I'm Jim Cox, also
 8   the commissioner.
 9                  MR. MOORE:  I'm Danny Moore, a member of
10   the Bac.
11                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  And you're with
12   manufacturers?
13                  MR. MOORE:  No.  I'm a distributor/
14   manufacturer rep.
15                  MR. WHITTINGTON:  My name is Larry
16   Whittington.  I'm with charities, BAC.
17                  MR. DOUGHERTY:  Jack Dougherty.  I'm the
18   public member.
19                  MR. PAVLOVSKY:  Pete Pavlovsky
20   respecting charities.
21                  MS. ROGERS:  Kimberly Rogers,
22   representing the conductor lessors.
23                  MS. TAYLOR:  Suzanne Taylor,
24   representing commercial lessors.
25                  MR. ATKINS:  I'm Billy Atkins.  I'm the
0008
 1   director of the Charitable Bingo Division.
 2                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  Thank you all.
 3                  The format, did everyone get a format of
 4   the discussion that we'll be using today?  Did anyone
 5   not get one of these?  We can have one brought to you.
 6                  I'd like to walk through this real
 7   quickly.  Briefly, we're going to ask the people at
 8   these tables to describe their perception of the
 9   challenges facing Charitable Bingo.  We will be asking
10   the Commissioners, the director of bingo, and any
11   staff, and the BAC members to answer that question.  We
12   will be publicly scribing their answers.
13                  I would like to introduce Sandy Joseph,
14   who is assisting with scribing today and is also a
15   legal counsel here, as well as Worlanda Neal.  Worlanda
16   is here to assist us in the scribing.
17                  We will be scribing publicly and then we
18   will be posting these along this back wall, so we'll be
19   trying to get to that back wall.  Any latecomers are
20   welcome to look at the notes and kind of see what's
21   happened so far.  The second thing we're going to do
22   is, we're going to do brainstorming -- and I will
23   explain that at the time -- and this is going to
24   include the public.  We want your brainstorm ideas.
25   We're going to be asking what you see the role of the
0009
 1   commissioners, the BAC, the staff, and director of
 2   bingo and then we will be talking about whether they
 3   agree, disagree, or have concerns about those things
 4   that we've brainstormed for their roles.  We will do
 5   something very similar for the goals for each of those
 6   groups and then we will just -- we will walk through
 7   that.
 8                  The goals for today are posted in two
 9   places.  I don't know if you're able to read them.
10   They are:  To increase communication in general, to
11   share expectations, to identify gaps in role
12   expectations and goals -- and, today, we will not be
13   outwardly identifying the gaps as much as we will when
14   we process the data that we arrive at today -- and then
15   mutual learning of the processes that you can use in
16   the future.  So those are today's goals.
17                  One last housekeeping item are ground
18   rules.  In order for me to be effective as a
19   facilitator, I have to understand what the ground rules
20   for your discussion are, and so that's where I become
21   kind of a traffic cop, so, the ground rules, I'd like
22   to walk through them -- and this will take just a
23   minute -- and I posted them right up here, also.
24                  The first one is very obvious and not
25   real sophisticated, to keep the discussion focused.
0010
 1   Okay, that's at given.  If we get off topic, we're not
 2   going to finish our agenda.
 3                  To test assumptions and inferences.
 4   When you make an assumption, you take for granted
 5   something as being true without verifying it, so if I
 6   think you might be doing that, I might try to test your
 7   assumption.  Okay?  When you make an inference, you
 8   draw conclusions about what you do not know based on
 9   something that you do know.  And I'd like to give an
10   example of assumptions and inferences.
11                  Let's say that Jim is the boss and Jim
12   goes to Tom and he says, "you know, your team is
13   loaded, you have lots of work, I think I'm going to
14   give those weekly reports to Sandy's team," and he
15   walks away.  Jim has made the assumption that Tom knew
16   that he thinks well of his team, he thinks they're
17   doing a terrific job, he just wants to lighten his
18   load, but he didn't say that.  Okay?  He just said,
19   "I'm going to take this job away from you and give it
20   to Sandy."  Tom is thinking, he's unhappy with my work.
21   He made an inference that he wasn't happy with his work
22   and he's upset.  So, one person didn't test their
23   assumption that the other person knew that he thought
24   highly of his work and then Tom didn't realize -- he
25   didn't check out his assumption and say, "are you
0011
 1   unhappy with my work and that's why you're moving it?"
 2   He made an inference, so we're going to test
 3   assumptions and inferences.
 4                  Share relevant information.  You cannot
 5   make good decisions or problem solve affectively if you
 6   don't have all the relevant information.  So if I know
 7   I have a contribution to make and it's going to hurt my
 8   case, it's not going to help my argument, I'm still
 9   obligated to share it so that everybody has all the
10   relevant data.
11                  I use examples and agree on what
12   important words mean.  Let's say we use the word
13   "consensus," that means a lot of different things to
14   different people, so if we hear a word like that, I may
15   ask someone to define that word to be sure that we're
16   on the same page.
17                  Focus on interests not positions.  An
18   interest is a need or desire you have in regard to a
19   given situation.  A position or a solution is how you
20   meet your interests.  Oftentimes, if we know what your
21   interest is behind the position that you've taken, we
22   can find a solution that will satisfy multiple
23   interests.  So, I'll be hoping that we can speak to
24   interests in bringing that up where needed.
25                  Combine advocacy and inquiry.  Rather
0012
 1   than just advocating for your own interests on
 2   something, I'm asking that you would agree to listen
 3   and be interested in other people's perceptions or
 4   their opinions and their interest, so give yours and be
 5   willing to hear others.
 6                  One person talking at a time.  It's
 7   going to be tough.  People in the audience, you're
 8   going to be tempted to have side conversations.  We
 9   really want you engaged in all the conversation going
10   on up here, so if you need to have a side conversation,
11   we would ask that you step right outside, if you would.
12                  And then the last is, be willing to
13   agree to disagree.  Okay?  It happens every day.  And
14   that's one of the ground rules, is that we may have to
15   agree to disagree.
16                  Questions about the ground rules?  How
17   many people in the room can support the ground rules?
18   Am a I missing anybody?  Is there anybody that cannot
19   support the ground rules?  Okay.  Great.  Thank you
20   very much.
21                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  So, the first item
22   on the agenda is:  Briefly describe your perceptions of
23   the challenges facing Charitable Bingo.
24                  And we will start with the
25   commissioners.  We're trying to stay time bound.  We
0013
 1   may go over on some items; we may go under on some
 2   items.
 3                  So, we will start with you.
 4                  COMMISSIONER OLVERA:  The Chair or me?
 5                  CHAIRMAN CLOWE:  You.
 6                  COMMISSIONER OLVERA:  Oh.  Thank you.  I
 7   didn't know who you were pointing to.  Well, thank you
 8   all for being here, and, once again, I look forward to
 9   this discussion.
10                  The consistent theme that I receive as a
11   commissioner is the problems that bingo has as an
12   industry, and I think maybe, in the past month even,
13   that Mr. Bresnen had a very negative outlook of the
14   future in terms of, possibly within the next five
15   years, bingo no longer existing as we know it.  So, we
16   have some very negative outlooks, and I think the
17   consistent message is that the Bingo Enabling Act needs
18   to be modified and be brought up-to-date.  Obviously,
19   it is at least 20 years old and has numerous statutory
20   provisions that hamper, if not negate, the
21   effectiveness of bingo as it exists today in order to
22   compete effectively, and I think that's a message that
23   really needs to be received, not only among the
24   industry here with you-all, but the legislators,
25   because I think there's also a perception that the
0014
 1   Commission, the Texas Lottery Commission, can somehow
 2   magically fix what's wrong with the Bingo Enabling Act,
 3   and that is a misperception.  So, I'm thankful that
 4   we're here to make a record, that we're here to educate
 5   one another and move forward on, hopefully, being
 6   unified in fixing the Bingo Enabling Act.
 7                  CHAIRMAN CLOWE:  I'm going to offer up
 8   some assumptions and some inferences and I'm asking
 9   that they be tested.  First of all, I think it's
10   helpful to understand in this venue the difference
11   between the lottery and bingo.  In my mind, the lottery
12   is an operation that is owned by the State of Texas and
13   it benefits the State of Texas.  It is designed to
14   create income that supports primarily the foundation
15   school fund.  And the State of Texas, within the
16   enabling statute as it is operated by this Commission,
17   runs that business, a three-and-a-half-billion-a-year
18   business, for its own benefit.
19                  Charitable Bingo operations in this
20   state, as authorized more than 20 years ago by the
21   Bingo Enabling Act, is a very different thing.  It is
22   not primarily designed to create revenue for the state
23   nor is it designed to create financial success for
24   those who have a private and business interest in it.
25   It is allowed in this state to benefit charities.  And
0015
 1   in my mind -- and this is where I'm happy to have to
 2   defend this, if there are those who don't agree with
 3   it -- bingo exists in this state for the benefit of
 4   charities, and in that venue, the Commission, this
 5   agency, regulates that operation, and it is either a
 6   private enterprise with charities or it is charities
 7   themselves who operate those bingo functions.
 8                  Now, in my mind, the Bingo Advisory
 9   Committee was created to advise the Commission and get
10   the Commission's awareness at the highest level of
11   what's going on in the bingo industry.  I think it is a
12   very difficult task for the members of the BAC and the
13   members of the Commission to communicate that
14   information back and forth because the BAC meets
15   quarterly, private industry, individuals, they're
16   traveling here, giving up their on time, all at their
17   expense, and I think the BAC members have a tendency to
18   be focused on what are their business problems.  And I
19   think, somehow, if we're going to continue the BAC
20   operation as an advisory group to the Commission, we've
21   got to find a way to make that communication more
22   industry-focussed and less individual-interest focused.
23   It's not a criticism; it's a statement of fact from my
24   perception.
25                  The industry itself has two problems, in
0016
 1   my mind.  One that so many people are focused on is
 2   that bingo revenues are decreasing.  The market is
 3   moving away from the bingo halls.  We've all discussed
 4   the age of the player, the wants and the likes of the
 5   player, the competitive factors outside bingo --
 6   internet gaming, eight liners, many forms of gaming
 7   that are available -- and the limitations on modifying
 8   bingo to make it more attractive to the player today in
 9   Texas.
10                  There's another problem in the bingo
11   industry, as I see it -- and, you know, this year we're
12   coming back around for Sunset in this agency and part
13   of that Sunset review has to do with the distribution
14   of moneys to charities.  I think that, in the operation
15   of bingo, there is a part of the house where there is
16   money that's going directly to bingo -- to charities
17   and it goes right into that entity where it's intended
18   to go and, in another part of the house, there are
19   operations that are holding funds in surplus accounts
20   or in other accounts where the charities are not
21   getting that money.  We had compelling testimony here a
22   week ago today from an individual about that very
23   subject.  It highlights, in my mind, under the current
24   act, the need for examination of those operations and
25   some way to improve that passing on of those moneys to
0017
 1   the charities themselves.  I don't think anybody can do
 2   this by themselves.
 3                  I don't think -- the legislature, the
 4   Lottery Commission, the bingo industry, I don't think
 5   anyone is all-encompassing enough to create these
 6   positive changes that I hope can come out of this
 7   meeting and the thinking that we're going to create
 8   prior to the next regular session of the legislature,
 9   but I think if we can focus on these problems and
10   clearly understand what we have to deal with, we can
11   move in the right direction to get more money to
12   charities, and that is my primary interest.
13                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  Thank you.
14                  COMMISSIONER COX:  Mr. Chairman, you
15   don't leave much to be said, do you?
16                  CHAIRMAN CLOWE:  Sorry.
17                  COMMISSIONER COX:  I certainly agree
18   completely with what Commissioner Olvera and Chairman
19   Clowe say.  I think my focus among those things that
20   they have addressed is the apparent lack of tools that
21   the respective parties in this arena have been given.
22   The challenges, I think, facing the industry are that
23   they haven't been given the tools to use technology
24   that appeals to the consumer market today.  There are
25   lots of institutions in this country, churches being
0018
 1   one that come to mind, that have not used the tools of
 2   technology and have seen that you'll suffer if you
 3   don't.  I think it's important that the recognition be
 4   accorded this problem, that technology needs to come
 5   into the product line to a greater extent than it has.
 6                  Secondly, I think the challenges facing
 7   the industry are that the regulators, namely, the Texas
 8   Lottery Commission through its Charity Bingo Division,
 9   have not been given the clear -- clearly given the
10   tools that they need to regulate the industry
11   sufficiently, and the most important thing that I
12   believe you as an industry have is an effective
13   regulatory agency.  If this agency doesn't have the
14   authority to give you an effective good housekeeping
15   seal of approval, I think the industry will suffer from
16   that.
17                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  Thank you.  Okay.
18   Next, we are asking -- now, I also skipped something.
19   I want to acknowledge Kim Furr, our certified court
20   reporter.  Thank you, Kim, for being here.  And Kim
21   needs for you, before you speak, to say your name
22   because she can't see everyone's name tag, so you need
23   to announce your name first for her each time you're
24   going to speak for the first time.
25                  So, Billy, I turn to you.  The same
0019
 1   question for you:  The challenges you see, your
 2   perceptions of the challenges facing charitable bingo.
 3                  MR. ATKINS:  Okay.  My name is Billy
 4   Atkins.  And probably the first thing I'd do is begin
 5   by challenging some of the assumptions that Chairman
 6   Clowe made; in that, I understand that he believes that
 7   the intent of Charitable Bingo when the statute was
 8   first developed 20-plus years ago wasn't to raise money
 9   for the state or to benefit individuals, but I do
10   believe that, over the years, that is what has
11   occurred.  Because I know that whenever I meet with
12   members of the legislature that I'm always asked any
13   changes to the Bingo Enabling Act.  The question is not
14   that dissimilar from what's in it for the state.
15                  Again, to echo a lot of what has already
16   been said, I think, from our perception, the greatest
17   challenge that bingo in Texas has been facing is
18   increased competition for a limited number of
19   discretionary dollars both within the state and
20   surrounding the state, and I agree that a lot of that
21   is driven by statute.
22                  Additionally, I think that one of the
23   things that the statute has done over the years is, it
24   has, essentially, created a world of two bingos in the
25   State of Texas.
0020
 1                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  I'm sorry.  A world
 2   of?
 3                  MR. ATKINS:  A world of two bingos.
 4                  There are small operations conducting
 5   bingo at their own location with volunteers playing
 6   very low-tier games and there are other organizations
 7   at large, what is termed by the Act, commercial
 8   operations playing games for, you know, the maximum
 9   amount of prizes available -- electronic games, et
10   cetera -- so that creates a dichotomy in regulation and
11   it makes it difficult, and so there's two things that
12   are a concern of the staff.  One, because of that
13   dichotomy, when we try and address an issue that may be
14   occurring primarily at one of these larger
15   organizations, we may inadvertently harm the smaller
16   organizations.
17                  As Commissioner Cox pointed out, there
18   are areas in the Act where the staff believes there are
19   glaring gaps in necessary regulatory controls, so that
20   has a tendency to make the staff, not reluctant, but,
21   hesitant, I guess, whenever new things are proposed
22   because we kind of feel like, from a regulatory
23   standpoint, bingo is still walking -- or, crawling and
24   that it seems like we're jumping to where bingo would
25   be running, but we're doing that without the regulatory
0021
 1   authority that we feel we need, so it's almost as
 2   though we're playing a game of catchup instead of, I
 3   guess, appearing more open to new suggestions or
 4   whatever, we're constantly thinking in the back of our
 5   mind, but we still need this, how can we move forward
 6   when we don't have these bases covered?
 7                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  Thank you.  Anyone
 8   else from your staff commenting?
 9                  MR. ATKINS:  No, ma'am.
10                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  Okay.  We'll move
11   to the BAC's perceptions about the challenges of
12   Charitable Bingo.
13                  Suzanne, would you like to begin?
14                  MS. TAYLOR:  I would.  I have one
15   disagreement with Chairman Clowe, also; although, I'm
16   crazy about him.  He said bingo is not designed to
17   benefit the state, but the charities do benefit the
18   state.  The challenges, a lot of them have already been
19   discussed.  We have a 20-year-old Bingo Enabling Act
20   with 20-year-old rules and, unfortunately, the Lottery
21   Commission at this point has been given the task to
22   regulate bingo without being given the task to promote
23   bingo.  That is a huge challenge to us.
24                  The increase in competition for the
25   gaming dollars has already also been mentioned.  You
0022
 1   know, with the dog tracks, horse tracks, lottery, and
 2   all the gambling in the neighboring states, and all the
 3   other ways to spend their money, bingo hasn't kept pace
 4   with the times, and without being able to keep pace
 5   with the times, we're losing customers, and with the
 6   attendance decreasing day by day, it scares all of us
 7   that are in the industry.  It scares the charities, it
 8   scares the people that have the bingo halls, and it
 9   scares the manufacturers/distributors.  We're all, as
10   and industry, scared because we see bingo continuing to
11   decline and we don't see anything that's going to bring
12   about an upsurge.
13                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  Thank you.
14                  Kimberly Rogers?
15                  MS. ROGERS:  Basically, the same that
16   everyone has said, you know, I just, same thing.  One
17   thing I do want to say is, I believe that we're all
18   here for the same -- we want the same goals, but the
19   challenges are -- the charities are faced with the
20   challenges of not being able to move forward and keep
21   up.  You know, we're still held by a 20-year-old Bingo
22   Enabling Act, and that's one thing I think that
23   everyone wants to see worked on, which -- and we have
24   to have some type of starting point and this is the
25   starting point, I believe.
0023
 1                  You know, we can break it even down
 2   further with not enough playing time, larger prizes.
 3   Because you have individuals out there who want to come
 4   in, they want to have a good time, they want to play,
 5   they want to win larger prizes, and I do believe that
 6   charities -- I'm sorry -- bingo does benefit the state.
 7   It benefits charities also, and that's the main goal.
 8   And so, just basically what everyone else has said, my
 9   same challenges that I see.
10                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  Just a distinction
11   I want to draw to be sure I heard correctly.  I didn't
12   here Chairman Clowe say that bingo did not benefit the
13   state but that the original design was for it to mostly
14   benefit charities, so I want to make -- is that -- am
15   I -- did I understand you correctly?
16                  CHAIRMAN CLOWE:  I love those challenges
17   because they are clarifying.  First, let me respond to
18   Billy's comment.  I understand when you meet with the
19   legislators they say, you know, what revenue is coming
20   into the state, and I run into that too, but, in my
21   mind, the legislator is hungry for revenue and they
22   will always be interested in that, but that still
23   doesn't get the first priority, in my mind, and I'm
24   speaking my mind.  My mind is focused on the charities
25   and I think that's where the primary benefit of
0024
 1   charitable bingo is directed.
 2                  And, then, Suzanne is correct in the
 3   terminology that she used.  The proceeds of charitable
 4   bingo go to the charities and that does benefit the
 5   state, but it is not in a direct way that we're talking
 6   about and Billy pointed out where the money goes --
 7   there is some money that goes into the general fund,
 8   but the charities should be the primary recipient, in
 9   my mind, of the money, so that is a benefit to the
10   state; in that, the state is not required to fund some
11   charitable operations that bingo funds and takes care
12   of, and that's why I want to see the charities get more
13   money, and if you count that as a benefit to the state,
14   then I think it's beneficial.
15                  I appreciate the opportunity to be
16   challenged and to clarify that.  I think we're on the
17   same road.  We are terming and describing it maybe in a
18   little different way.  I think I always see it so
19   clearly.  My wife often corrects me on that.
20                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  Thank you.
21                  MR. PAVLOVSKY:  Pete Pavlovsky.  I'd
22   like to learn more about what Chairman Clowe said about
23   the compelling testimony that he recently heard.  In
24   the area that I come from, all of our bingo is run by
25   volunteers.  Challenges, there's a lot of things I can
0025
 1   say, ditto, ditto, ditto, you know, to everything
 2   that's been said.  Just a couple of things, we need to
 3   increase the awards of the payout and we need to get
 4   the word out.  We need better advertising, among other
 5   things.  I mean, there's so many things that we can do
 6   in order to benefit bingo to benefit charities to
 7   benefit the state.  Thank you.
 8                  CHAIRMAN CLOWE:  Let me answer Pete's
 9   question about that compelling testimony, if I may.
10                  Pete, the Commission voted Monday, a
11   week ago today, to cancel a license to a charity, and a
12   representative of that charity appeared and made a
13   public statement about that situation.  I don't think
14   it would be fair or proper for me to try to paraphrase
15   or quote that testimony to you, but I would like to
16   refer you to the transcript of that meeting, and I
17   think if you, when that becomes available -- I'm not
18   sure it's ready yet -- but if you will take the time to
19   go to our web site and read that testimony, I think the
20   comments that individual made will help you understand
21   what reference I made there.
22                  MR. PAVLOVSKY:  Thank you, sir.
23                  CHAIRMAN CLOWE:  You bet.
24                  MR. DOUGHERTY:  Jack Dougherty.  I
25   represent the public.  My associate here took all my
0026
 1   speech away.  Thank you, Pete.
 2                  MR. PAVLOVSKY:  Just read that.
 3                  MR. DOUGHERTY:  I want to just emphasize
 4   the -- I think the two things that can help bingo more
 5   than anything else, which is a lot of side issues,
 6   since I represent the -- I'm not a vendor or an
 7   operator, that the legislature needs to be well aware
 8   that bingo limits must be raised in order to get the
 9   interest of the people.  That's where the competitive
10   thing is in this area against other states.  We need to
11   have something much more attractive to the average
12   person.  And when I say average person, I'm talking
13   bingo players which are mostly 55, 60 years old and up,
14   and they need to have more incentive to come out and
15   play bingo.
16                  And the other thing is, having
17   accomplished these higher limits -- I hope it will
18   happen in this legislature -- that the advertising
19   budgets need to be put out there.  There needs to be
20   more media attention, more attention placed on bingo
21   and its charitable contributions.  That's where I'm
22   coming from.
23                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  Mr. Moore?
24                  MR. MOORE:  Danny Moore.  I pretty much
25   would reiterate everything that's been said here.
0027
 1   Obviously, the gambling interests around the state,
 2   they don't dot our borders for any specific reason
 3   other than to take the money out of Texas.  What I --
 4   what I have a problem with here sometimes is that we've
 5   talked about a lot of things and we all know what the
 6   problem is, but I don't know how we facilitate the
 7   change.  You know, we have lobbying groups outside of
 8   this room.  And what I pose the question to
 9   Commissioner Clowe is:  If you're in agreement with --
10   for instance, IBC's, if a phone call comes from a
11   legislator, are you going to support us on something
12   like that?  And I don't know if I can ask you that
13   question right here right now.
14                  CHAIRMAN CLOWE:  You sure can, and let
15   me try to answer it for you.
16                  For one commissioner of three, my
17   position is this, I don't think it is proper for a
18   member of this board to advocate to the legislature for
19   the bingo industry.  I think that would be improper on
20   my part, but I have described to the members of the
21   legislature the problems that I had commented on here
22   this morning, and I have said to those members who have
23   asked me, well, you know, what do we need to do about
24   bingo?  I have said, well, I think these are the things
25   that those people need, and I have listened the things
0028
 1   that we've talked about, and, to me, that is responding
 2   to a question and being a resource, which I think is
 3   the proper role for a member of this commission and a
 4   member of the staff, but I do not think that we are
 5   authorized or should, by right of our position,
 6   advocate like the industry should itself.
 7                  Do I make the distinction clear there,
 8   Danny?
 9                  MR. MOORE:  Sure.  But, you know, we're
10   going to try to give you as many tools as you need to
11   understand where we think this industry has to go.  It
12   says, we advise the commission on the needs and
13   problems in the industry.  I've been doing this 20
14   years and it's obvious what the problems are.  I mean,
15   inside the state, we got eight liners still all over,
16   probably more now than there was a year ago.  You know,
17   we just can't compete.  I drive by these places in
18   Houston, there's no sign in front of them and there's
19   20 cars sitting in front of the place, I know damn well
20   what's going on there.  Okay?  And we need to -- we
21   need to keep up with them.  There is urgency and Billy
22   says his staff is trying to catch up.  Well, I think
23   you need to hurry up because we've got to get something
24   done real quick here.
25                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  I mean, if I could
0029
 1   intervene for just a second.  Would you be willing to
 2   define, serve as a resource," when you said you don't
 3   believe that the Commission can be an advocate but you
 4   can serve as a resource?  Because Daniel's question was
 5   pretty specific, if you get a call -- if I understood
 6   you correctly, if you got a call from some lobbyist
 7   concerning a change, would the commission --
 8                  MR. MOORE:  It's actually a legislator.
 9   I'm sorry.
10                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  A legislator.
11   Would they support a legislator's inquiry for some of
12   these changes that have come up, is that the question?
13                  MR. MOORE:  That's correct.
14                  CHAIRMAN CLOWE:  Yeah, that's a good
15   question, Carol, and let me try to clarify that.
16                  A state agency is prohibited by law from
17   lobbying and we don't do that, but we get questions
18   from legislators from time to time -- not lobbyists
19   because they're talking to their clients and they get
20   direction from their clients about what they want.  The
21   legislators will say, you know, what do we need to do
22   to help bingo, and that's where we are serving as a
23   resource.  We can then say, well, we need to see link
24   games; we need to see the prize maximum increase; we
25   need to see electronic pull tabs, those would help
0030
 1   bingo compete with those entities that are in the state
 2   competing for the discretionary gaming dollar.  That,
 3   in my mind, is acting as a resource.  Not being an
 4   advocate is not picking up the phone and calling the
 5   legislature and saying, we really want you to do this.
 6                  In my mind, this meeting is a resource
 7   meeting and we are airing these subjects and I hope
 8   people are listening as we have this discussion.  The
 9   Commission can do this, but that's the limit that we
10   can go to.  And Nelda Trevino is in the room.  She is
11   the governmental relations division director.
12                  Nelda, do you challenge anything I've
13   said?
14                  MS. TREVINO:  Chairman Clowe, at this
15   time I don't challenge anything that you say.  The only
16   thing that I would add to your comments that I think is
17   helpful when we're responding to requests from members
18   of the legislature is the fiscal impact that these kind
19   of initiatives can have because I think that's helpful
20   information for the policymaker to provide, and that's
21   something, along with the staff and the industry, that
22   we try to come together and provide good, informative
23   information.
24                  CHAIRMAN CLOWE:  And I might add, you
25   must always be respectful when you're talking about
0031
 1   gaming in this state -- and I remind the staff of the
 2   Lottery Commission constantly -- there are those who do
 3   not want legalized gaming in this state of any kind,
 4   and so those people make their positions known and they
 5   have an influence on the legislature, and, in my mind,
 6   we must be respectful of those people and remember that
 7   they have a position, too.  So, there's those who are
 8   for you in either lottery or bingo and there are those
 9   who are opposed to you.
10                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  Thank you.
11                  Mr. Whittington?
12                  MR. WHITTINGTON:  Good morning,
13   commissioners.  My name is Larry Whittington,
14   Charitable Bingo.  First of all, I want to say, bingo,
15   as a whole, I think has created the gambling that goes
16   in these casinos and eight-liner places because they
17   have gotten a taste of it, okay, through bingo as a
18   gambling facility for charities, but there's so many
19   old rules and stipulations that affect bingo that we've
20   got to deal with with the Texas Lottery Commission as
21   of right now.
22                  Most cities and states don't know
23   anything about bingo.  They're not aware of what bingo
24   represents and I guess that got to come through
25   advertising or something so they know what bingo is all
0032
 1   about, helping charities.  They think it's just
 2   gambling facilities, people just go and win money and
 3   that's it.  They don't know anything about the charity
 4   aspect.  We need advertising.  Like I said, we are a
 5   gambling facility and we need something to help these
 6   charities as far as gambling because that's where we're
 7   losing our people, the gamble places and illegal
 8   places, eight-liners and such, so that's what we need
 9   to focus on.
10                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  Mario Manio?
11                  MR. MANIO:  Well, most of the concerns
12   of the house that I have about bingo have already been
13   stated in this forum, but what I'd like to do is
14   enforce one point that was bought out by Suzanne and
15   Billy, and that is pertaining to the competitive
16   strength, or should I say weakness, of bingo today.
17                  We are all aware that bingo has been
18   declining since 1999 year after year, basically.
19   That's the only thing that's consistent about bingo
20   today.  And the end result of this is like in the place
21   of where I reside where there are over 30 bingo halls,
22   we are forced to compete against each other because --
23   because of the shrinking market share of bingo.  The
24   big picture is, we should not be competing against each
25   other.  We are really competing against movie houses,
0033
 1   the malls, internet gambling, the ballgames.
 2                  The survival of bingo really depends on
 3   what the legislature will do in 2005.  I don't think
 4   any bingo hall of any size can sustain anymore losses
 5   than they have incurred in the last five years, but
 6   2005 is crucial.  Bingo needs to be rejuvenated.  We
 7   need something to compete with the movie houses and the
 8   malls and the internet gambling.  If we can't, we can
 9   say good-bye to charitable bingo.
10                  In the last session of the legislature,
11   there was a proposal -- there was a bill that was
12   actually passed; unfortunately, it was vetoed by the
13   government.  That would have -- I'm referring to
14   progressive bingo.  That would have rejuvenated bingo
15   today if they had given us something to compete against
16   these other entities, but it was not to be.  And,
17   hopefully, in 2005, I think there will be two or three
18   more proposals to enhance the competitive position of
19   bingo and hopefully one or two or all of them will get
20   passed.  And that's what I'd like to add to what
21   Suzanne and Billy has expressed before.
22                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  Thank you.  Before
23   we move on, I'd like to know, how many people standing
24   would like a chair?  Anybody standing trying to find a
25   chair?  Okay.  We can have several more brought in.
0034
 1                  The next thing we're going to do is
 2   called brainstorming.  How many people are familiar
 3   with brainstorming?  Can I see a show of hands?
 4                  Brainstorming is a form of generating a
 5   lot of ideas in a short amount of time.  Brainstorming
 6   does not include evaluating the idea.  So, depending on
 7   what the question is, if I say go to the moon, no one
 8   can say, "oh, Carol that's a terrible idea, we can't go
 9   to the moon, we don't have the money to go to the
10   moon."  All ideas are accepted in brainstorming.  Okay?
11   So the goal is to kind of get way out there on some of
12   your ideas.
13                  And the next question on the table that
14   we want to brainstorm -- and this includes input from
15   the industry and the public -- is:  What do you see the
16   role of the following in Charitable Bingo:  What is the
17   role -- what is the Commissioners' role in Charitable
18   Bingo?  What do you see their role to be?
19                  We're going to brainstorm this.  We're
20   going to start logically with brainstorming.  You begin
21   on a corner, we'll go around the circle, and then we'll
22   start and we'll go along the room this way and just
23   kind of snake back and forth.  You can say pass or --
24   you know, and then we can come back to you, and then
25   we'll open it up and people can just raise their hands
0035
 1   and add ideas.
 2                  CHAIRMAN CLOWE:  Carol, here's where you
 3   run into the public meetings constraint.  There are
 4   those people who have signed an appearance form and
 5   they have indicated their desire to speak.  My
 6   suggestion to you would be that you let me hand these
 7   to you and you call on these people, as we must have a
 8   written record of their appearance and their desire to
 9   speak.
10                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  Okay.  If you want
11   to brainstorm, get you one of these and we'll get you
12   included in the brainstorming.  I apologize.
13                  CHAIRMAN CLOWE:  And I'll tell you the
14   practice we follow -- and you just put the last two on
15   the top -- we usually call on those people in the order
16   that the appearances come in, in fairness, so if you
17   were to start at the top and work down, that's the way
18   they came in.
19                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  All right.  Okay.
20   And is there a way for me to know what they wanted to
21   comment on or do I just ask them if it's this item or
22   not?
23                  CHAIRMAN CLOWE:  That's what I would
24   have to do.
25                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  Okay.  Would it be
0036
 1   all right within the Open Meetings Act if, when we get
 2   to industry, slash, public for comment, I ask is there
 3   anyone that I have a sheet for that has a brainstorming
 4   idea?  Okay.  So, we're on the honor system here.  I
 5   have to have a sheet before you can contribute.  Okay.
 6   And then a reminder to say your name before your
 7   contribution.  Okay.  Great.
 8                  So, the first question, Mr. Roland?
 9                  COMMISSIONER OLVERA:  Rollie, Rolando,
10   anything.
11                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  The question is --
12   and it's brainstorming, okay, so you kind of want to
13   give pretty quick answers and keep it moving, and
14   you'll have a chance to give another answer.  It's not
15   like, you don't have to think of it all at this point,
16   so we'll keep it moving pretty quick through the room
17   and then we'll come back around.
18                  And the question is:  What do see the
19   role -- the Commissioners' roll to be in Charitable
20   Bingo?  And Sandy is going to be scribing and I may be
21   helping her.
22                  COMMISSIONER OLVERA:  Well, obviously,
23   our role is described by statute to regulate the
24   industry within the limits we're given.  I don't know
25   how much I can expand on that.  In terms of, quote, the
0037
 1   typical brainstorming of ideas, I wanted to point out
 2   in terms of key phrases, I was going to say penal code,
 3   and I was interested in Mr. Manio's comments in the
 4   sense that you, an industry, not only need to lobby to
 5   enhance the Enabling Act, but you need to lobby, if you
 6   want to be competitive, to increase the strengths of
 7   the penal code.
 8                  Because if you look at the gambling
 9   statute of the penal code, it's a very flexible -- it's
10   a very flexible law, so you have, as your mentioned --
11   I mean, your biggest competitors right now, as I see
12   it, is not just out-of-state casinos, but it's in-state
13   gambling in every home that has a computer, everyone
14   that attends these poker tournaments, that plays black
15   jack at home, that bets on gaming at home, so that's a
16   huge competitive market that's been taken away from
17   you, but yet, there are no laws to address that, and so
18   if you just attack the Bingo Enabling Act without
19   attacking the competition, you're probably in no better
20   position than you are now.
21                  Anyway, so, in terms of brain storming,
22   penal code.  In terms of my role, well, my role is what
23   the legislature gives me.
24                  CHAIRMAN CLOWE:  You go first this time.
25                  COMMISSIONER COX:  Well, I certainly
0038
 1   agree with what Rollie says.  I look at the role,
 2   though, a little bit broader as you look at it
 3   holistically.  I think, first of all, we've got to have
 4   knowledge of the industry, and I think Chairman Clowe
 5   has been a great exemplar for this board of
 6   understanding the industry, coming to the Bingo
 7   Advisory Committee meetings, and knowing what's going
 8   on, and knowing what the challenges are to everybody in
 9   the game.  I think, certainly, that we have to oversee
10   compliance of the Act.  That's what our official job
11   description is, but in addition to that, I think we
12   need to be in a position to communicate and serve as a
13   resource with the legislators and the leadership.
14                  CHAIRMAN CLOWE:  Nothing to add.  That
15   says it all.
16                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  Okay.  Daniel?
17                  MR. MOORE:  I think that over the last
18   year, our communication has gotten tremendously better,
19   and I think the only way that we can educate you is by
20   communicating what's going on in the marketplace, and I
21   think we do a pretty good job through these BAC
22   meetings of doing that.  As you can see, it's a full
23   house again today.  If we didn't have the BAC, I really
24   think it would shut things down quite a bit between the
25   commissioners and the industry itself.  So, you know,
0039
 1   as a role for the commissioners, I just think it's
 2   communicating with the public.
 3                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  Yes, sir.
 4                  MR. WHITTINGTON:  As y'all can see, all
 5   these people are here to support bingo.  They came
 6   because they're really concerned about bingo.  And with
 7   us working together, and really working together and
 8   getting something done, and really showing these people
 9   what bingo can do as a whole by us working together, I
10   think we'll be able to accomplish a lot.  Thank you.
11                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  Thank you.
12                  MR. MANIO:  What I'm going to say will
13   probably be challenged.  Before I joined this committee
14   and several months after I did, my perception -- and
15   I'm not alone in this perception -- is that the
16   commissioners are really more interested in lottery
17   than in bingo, bingo being some kind of a poster child
18   of the Lottery Commission.  And, again, that's a
19   perception.  That may not be the truth, but perceptions
20   for some people is reality.  And, like I said, I'm not
21   alone in that thinking.
22                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  So, if you could
23   change -- if you could define what their role would be,
24   could you share a little bit more given what you just
25   stated?
0040
 1                  MR. MANIO:  Well, their role is very
 2   clear in my mind.  This is a regulatory agency and,
 3   therefore, their function is to regulate and enforce
 4   the law, but again, that's not the perception of the
 5   public.
 6                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  Thank you.
 7                  Mr. Dougherty?
 8                  MR. DOUGHERTY:  Yes, ma'am.
 9                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  Your ideas for what
10   the commissioners' role is in Charitable Bingo.
11                  MR. DOUGHERTY:  I can't add anything to
12   what's been said.  My position is a little more
13   different than most people, so I'll pass.
14                  MR. PAVLOVSKY:  I agree.  I think the
15   commissioners' role is defined by statute.  You know,
16   they're an enforcement group.  I don't have anything
17   else to add to that.
18                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  Okay.
19                  MS. ROGERS:  I agree that you're
20   confined by the rules and laws and things, but I also
21   think the three of you hold a very strong voice and use
22   us to bring to you the everyday ideas and what the
23   everyday person who plays bingo needs and use your
24   voices to help us.  You know, you hear a lot about what
25   you can do and what you can't do, but some of us may
0041
 1   not understand exactly what you can and can't do, and I
 2   think y'all have done a very good job of letting us
 3   know what is outside the boundaries, but what is inside
 4   those boundaries, help us, because you do have a very
 5   loud voice.  We will bring it to you and you will take
 6   it up further to legislation.
 7                  I see your role as taking what ideas we
 8   give you to the legislature.  And I think the BAC is
 9   very important because we deal every day, day in and
10   day out, whether it be with paperwork, whether it be
11   with computers, anything, everyday people.  We deal
12   with that and that's the ideas that we bring to you.
13                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  And, again, we're
14   not processing these ideas, so if someone disagrees
15   with something, this is not the appropriate time to
16   say, I don't agree with that.  Okay?
17                  CHAIRMAN CLOWE:  We're keeping our mouth
18   shut.
19                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  You're doing good.
20   Thank you.  Suzanne?
21                  MS. TAYLOR:  You are a regulatory
22   agency.  We're all aware of that and we know that, but
23   more importantly, to the bingo industry, you are a very
24   important resource for those legislators and that's why
25   we consistently drive you crazy with talking about
0042
 1   legislative issues because we know you're where they're
 2   going to come and ask the questions.
 3                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  Billy?
 4                  MR. ATKINS:  Policymakers.
 5                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  Is that it?
 6                  MR. ATKINS:  Uh-huh.
 7                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  Okay.  For those
 8   people who filled out a public comment sheet, who would
 9   like to add a brainstorming idea to the commissioners'
10   role?
11                  I have a sheet from you, sir?
12                  MR. GARCIA:  Yes, you do.
13                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  Thank you.
14                  MR. GARCIA:  I would say that part of
15   the commissioners' role --
16                  CHAIRMAN CLOWE:  State your name,
17   please.
18                  MR. GARCIA:  My name is Joe Garcia,
19   distributors and manufacturers.  I think one of the key
20   roles that you can play is, in your discussion, all of
21   you commissioners are appointed by the governor and I
22   think that you have a voice to the executive
23   leadership, which I think is the lieutenant governor,
24   the governor, and the speaker, and I think you can
25   assist in that role -- then you can assist the industry
0043
 1   in that role.
 2                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  Thank you.  Who
 3   else has a comment that I have a sheet for?
 4                  Yes, ma'am.
 5                  MS. HERBST:  Ann Herbst from Victoria,
 6   and I represent a charity.  I'd like to see the
 7   commission educate the public on what Charitable Bingo
 8   really is.  People don't even know.  They go out and
 9   play bingo, but they don't even know why they play it
10   or what they're told when they're playing it; they're
11   just having fun, but I think education.
12                  CHAIRMAN CLOWE:  Can we ask questions
13   for clarifications?
14                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  Absolutely, you can
15   ask questions, but you can't process the comment.
16                  CHAIRMAN CLOWE:  Okay.  And that sounds
17   like advertising.
18                  MS. HERBST:  Well, it is.
19                  CHAIRMAN CLOWE:  Is it?  Is that what
20   you're saying?
21                  MS. HERBST:  Well, partly, yes.  But we
22   hear all the time about the lottery and new lottery
23   games and all this, but we never hear anything about
24   bingo, and that's just part of what the commission
25   does, I think, and I could be wrong.
0044
 1                  CHAIRMAN CLOWE:  There comes a time when
 2   we talk about these in more detail?
 3                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  Correct.
 4                  CHAIRMAN CLOWE:  Okay.  Let's come back
 5   to that when we get to that time.
 6                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  Thank you.  Who
 7   else would like to comment that I have a sheet for?
 8                  Yes, sir.
 9                  MR. BRESNEN:  Steve Bresnen on behalf of
10   the Bingo Interest Group.  Mr. Chairman, I'd like to
11   see added to your roles up there, number one, reporting
12   to the legislature on an accurate basis.  And when I
13   say accurate, I mean in terms of net revenues on a
14   basis that portrays the industry exactly like it is,
15   and we've talked some in open meetings about how that
16   would be done.  I would like to see y'all's role to
17   streamline the regulation even within the existing
18   statute.  I think those are things that you can do that
19   would be appropriate to do.  I'd also like to see you
20   focus the resources of the agency at the really
21   critical things that are important to the integrity of
22   the game and minimize the use of those resources on
23   things that would not be at least top priority.
24                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  Thank you.  Who
25   else?
0045
 1                  Yes, sir.
 2                  MR. BISHOP:  Don Bishop, Dallas, Texas,
 3   commercial lessor and charity person.  I think what has
 4   been going on is exactly what we've needed for years,
 5   and that's to have a Commission that will listen to the
 6   industry whine, which we seem to do a lot of, and I
 7   just want to express that this has been the most
 8   comprehensive period we have ever had in the 23 years
 9   or 24 years, I've been involved in Texas bingo.  I
10   would encourage you to keep doing it.  I want to tell
11   you how important it has been to us to come into the
12   Bingo Advisory Committee meetings with the lottery
13   staff and see one of the commissioners in attendance at
14   that meeting hearing what we have to say out here.  We
15   really do appreciate it.  Thank you.
16                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  Thank you.  Anybody
17   else?
18                  Yes, sir.  And I have a sheet for you,
19   sir?
20                  MR. BERTANI:  My name is Chuck Bertani.
21   I've got a little different turn on this thing because
22   I'm not accustomed to someone telling me what I'm going
23   to talk about and what I'm going to say.  My question
24   is to the commissioners, are we going to have an
25   opportunity to talk to you about what we perceive is
0046
 1   the problem with bingo without going through this role?
 2   I mean, I'm used to getting up and saying, here's A and
 3   here's B and here's C and this is why we can't get A,
 4   B, and C
 5                  CHAIRMAN CLOWE:  You will have that
 6   opportunity later on in this meeting, but it's not now.
 7                  MR. BERTANI:  Okay.  That's fine.
 8                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  Thank you.  I
 9   appreciate that.  Anybody else?
10                  All right.  We're moving to the role of
11   the director and staff of the bingo division.  And we
12   will start with Billy.
13                  MR. ATKINS:  I see one of the roles as
14   being a facilitator.
15                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  Okay.  Anybody else
16   from your staff commenting?
17                  MR. ATKINS:  I don't think anyone else
18   is here.
19                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  Okay.  Suzanne, the
20   role of the director and his staff.
21                  MS. TAYLOR:  The director and his staff
22   work with the BAC.  They're a resource for the BAC.
23   They work with us and, as a resource, it saves
24   countless hours that the volunteers on the BAC wouldn't
25   have.  And, obviously, they are here to regulate us
0047
 1   and, hopefully, work on rules and regulations that will
 2   help the industry and not hamper the industry.
 3                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  Okay.  Thank you.
 4                  MS. ROGERS:  I also see them as helpful
 5   hands in processing paperwork, and I'm speaking as an
 6   individual who does paperwork, you know, fills out the
 7   forms.  Answering questions, filling out forms.
 8                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  Okay.
 9                  MR. PAVLOVSKY:  Again, ditto, ditto,
10   ditto along with recordkeeping and enforcement.
11                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  Would you be
12   willing to be more specific about enforcement?
13                  MR. PAVLOVSKY:  Enforcing the rules of
14   bingo.
15                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  Thank you.
16                  MR. DOUGHERTY:  I think the staff is
17   indispensable to anything that we do.  We as members
18   could not possibly be effective in that role and I
19   think they have done a wonderful job.  Statistics, a
20   certain amount of promotion, and just the everyday
21   grind that this industry develops, so kudos to the
22   staff.
23                  MS. JOSEPH:  I missed one thing that
24   Pete said.  You said two things.  Enforce rules and the
25   other one?
0048
 1                  MR. PAVLOVSKY:  Recordkeeping.
 2                  MS. JOSEPH:  Thank you.
 3                  MR. MANIO:  I think there are three
 4   major functions of the director and his staff.  One is
 5   to formulate rules; number two is enforcement of those
 6   rules and the Bingo Enabling Act; and three, which in
 7   my mind is probably the most important, is:  The
 8   customers of the director and his staff are the
 9   charities of the 1,500, and I think it's a very
10   important function of the director and his staff to
11   support the operations of those 1,500 charitable
12   organizations conducting bingo in the State of Texas.
13                  MR. WHITTINGTON:  Again, Larry
14   Whittington.  I feel that in the last two years, the
15   director and the staff, along with the BAC, have come a
16   long ways.  I feel it's very important for us to work
17   together because it makes everything a lot easier, not
18   only for BAC, but for the staff as well, because we're
19   all here for the same purpose, to work together.
20                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  Okay.  When you
21   say, the last two years, things have gotten a lot
22   better, could you give us just a couple of examples?
23                  MR. WHITTINGTON:  A couple of examples,
24   when I first came, it seemed like it was a tug of war
25   to really discuss something and get something done in
0049
 1   bingo because there was doing their agenda and we was
 2   doing ours.  We really wasn't pulling together, but now
 3   we are.
 4                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  Okay.  Working
 5   together more.  Thank you.
 6                  MR. MOORE:  I think Billy hit it on the
 7   head.  Facilitator.  I think the staff and Billy are
 8   the ones that can facilitate the changes we need for
 9   bingo.
10                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  For those of you
11   who filled out a public form, do you have some
12   brainstorming ideas for the director and the staff of
13   the bingo division?  Anybody?
14                  MR. FENOGLIO:  Stephen Fenoglio.  I
15   represent over 950 charitable business organizations
16   involved in bingo.  And I was trying to follow the list
17   as she was putting it, but it occurs to me, one of the
18   staff's roles should be to kind of put their legs up on
19   the desk and look out the window and identify
20   roadblocks and opportunities for bingo.  And I'm not
21   saying that they need to be an advocate in that, but
22   sometimes it helps.  And I've actually seen Billy doing
23   that on occasion, which I think is an important task,
24   and it's always hard to find the time to do that.
25                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  Thank you.  Someone
0050
 1   else?  All right.  Commissioners?
 2                  COMMISSIONER COX:  Most of this has been
 3   covered and certainly it's within the broad definition
 4   Billy gave of this role as facilitator, but the staff
 5   is the primary source of information that the
 6   Commission has about bingo, and so, certainly, if we
 7   are to know what is going on, we can't get it by
 8   observing half of a Bingo Advisory Committee every
 9   three months.  We rely on Billy and his staff to keep
10   us informed.
11                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  Okay.  Thank you.
12                  CHAIRMAN CLOWE:  I'd like to add to
13   what's been said on the educational function, and I'd
14   like to emphasize that, because I think the bingo
15   operator program had a great deal to do with the
16   reduction of cases that come up where paperwork hasn't
17   been created properly and deadlines haven't been made,
18   and I think we've seen great strides in that area.
19   There's a lot of turnover in the operation of bingo
20   halls, and this education that the staff has undertaken
21   under Billy's direction I think has been very
22   beneficial.  An operation that's run right and smoothly
23   is a good operation.
24                  COMMISSIONER OLVERA:  I have nothing
25   much to add.  Facilitator is pretty much a global term,
0051
 1   and this includes recordkeeping, information,
 2   education, which I agree with.
 3                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  Okay.  The next
 4   question is to brainstorm the role of the BAC in
 5   Charitable Bingo.
 6                  And we will begin with Suzanne.
 7                  MS. TAYLOR:  The BAC has been directed
 8   to be a resource from the commissioners, and since the
 9   BAC is made up of all the different segments of the
10   bingo industry, we are able to provide information,
11   statistics to the Commission regarding the impact
12   proposed rules and regulations have on the day-to-day
13   bingo operations and the impact that they can have in
14   the future on our bingo operations.
15                  In addition, we can bring innovative
16   ideas, ideas that we feel worthy of the support of the
17   BAC, such as progressive bingo, the instant bingo
18   card-minders, the type of things that we feel would
19   really, truly help us in our day-to-day operations.
20   Since we are comprised of all of those segments, when
21   we all pull together and we are all supporting
22   something, then you know the bingo industry is for it,
23   too, and it lets you know when we're supporting it that
24   each of our own industries is in support of that.  So,
25   as a resource and to let you know of new ideas that
0052
 1   might help bingo.
 2                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  Thank you.
 3                  MS. ROGERS:  I agree with Suzanne.  We
 4   are the eyes, the ears, the voices of bingo.  We bring
 5   the idea, the changes to those of you who can help us
 6   to start making the changes.
 7                  MR. PAVLOVSKY:  I guess just one more
 8   way to say it, we're an advisory group to the
 9   commissioners.  Nearly three years ago when I got on
10   this committee, we sat in here for hours and hours and
11   hours listening to manufactures talk about new bingo
12   pull tabs, or whatever it might be, and just dissect
13   that information to make sure that it was legal in
14   Texas, and Billy kept us on the right road there, and
15   to do what we could do to improve the bingo attendance
16   and to improve the -- or, increase the amount of money
17   going to the charities.
18                  Anyway, I thought I'd just summarize it
19   again, we're just an advisory group to help y'all out.
20                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  Thank you.
21                  MR. DOUGHERTY:  Well, not to repeat
22   anything that's been said, I think we need to encourage
23   more innovative, I guess, pull tabs or -- not bingo
24   itself; bingo can't be changed -- the amenities that go
25   with bingo, such as electronics, progressive bingo, all
0053
 1   those different ideas that this modern day age can
 2   create could be highly recommended, and we encourage
 3   the vendors and the innovators and the inventors and
 4   all those people out there that come up with these
 5   things to pass them onto us so that we can rule on
 6   them.
 7                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  So if I understand,
 8   you're saying the role of the BAC is to take in those
 9   ideas and pass them along in an advisory capacity?
10                  MR. DOUGHERTY:  That's correct.
11   Certainly get the word out that we're open to that sort
12   of idea.  Because bingo itself cannot be changed.  It's
13   the amenities that come along through the bingo halls
14   that needs a -- well, more public anomaly on things.
15   They just think bingo is bingo; they don't know that
16   there's lot of things coming in there, and we encourage
17   that.
18                  COMMISSIONER OLVERA:  And I guess for
19   clarification, Mr. Dougherty, when you say, getting the
20   word out, are you referring to the general public, the
21   legislature, the Lottery Commission?  Who do you mean?
22   Who are you referring to?
23                  MR. DOUGHERTY:  Well, getting the word
24   out.  Again, that word advertising comes up so much,
25   and we know that it's expensive and I don't have any
0054
 1   grandiose ideas that we're going to add a whole lot of
 2   advertising to the industry, but, certainly, we should
 3   encourage that hopefully through the media.  You can
 4   get a lot of advertising through the media without any
 5   cost, but I'm not -- I don't have any cure for that
 6   offhand.  Hopefully at meetings like this, if there
 7   could be more newspaper representations that might tell
 8   people what we're talking about here, I think we would
 9   have it.
10                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  Thank you.
11                  MR. MANIO:  The role of the BAC is
12   advisory in nature, but behind that statement, there's
13   really a lot of work and a lot of effort that the
14   members of the BAC have put in in the sessions.  Also,
15   there is something that happened about a year, year and
16   a half ago that, in my mind, made the BAC more
17   effective, and that is the innovation of having more
18   groups, because the work groups gave us a forum to
19   discuss rules and regulations and ideas.  The work
20   group involves not only the members of the BAC but the
21   staff as well as the public, some public members, so we
22   were not inhibited by formality of a forum like this to
23   bring out any ideas like this and discuss them.
24                  What we recommend to the Commission is
25   probably -- well, it's important, but what is also as
0055
 1   important is what we do not recommend to the
 2   commissioners.  Because they never hear about that;
 3   they only hear about what we put forward for their
 4   consideration, but the things that we have eliminated
 5   were never even discussed or brought up, but they are
 6   just as equally important to the bingo industry.
 7                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  Sandy, you got all
 8   that?
 9                  MS. JOSEPH:  I have participated in
10   informal work groups with Commission and staff.
11                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  And then your
12   second point?
13                  MR. MANIO:  The second point is, what we
14   recommend is important, but what we do not recommend is
15   just as important.
16                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  And when you say
17   what you do not recommend is just as important, can you
18   say more about that?  Just give us an example.
19                  MR. MANIO:  Well, I cannot be specific,
20   but let's say there's a rule that needs to be changed
21   or a rule that needs to be put in place and that goes
22   through the process of deliberations and sometimes that
23   rule will not go forward.
24                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  I see.  So
25   sometimes you recommend against going forward with
0056
 1   something.
 2                  MR. MANIO:  That's right.
 3                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  And that is
 4   incredibly important, also?
 5                  MR. MANIO:  That's right.
 6                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  Thank you.
 7                  MR. WHITTINGTON:  As far as what I see
 8   the BAC is all about when it comes to Charitable Bingo
 9   is trying to create a tool and have the tool there for
10   the commissioners to understand bingo.  Without the
11   BAC, without these people in this room here, I don't
12   think y'all would know anything about bingo.  You would
13   be just like most of the people in the cities and the
14   states that think bingo is just bingo, nothing happens
15   in bingo, go in and buy a card and win bingo and walk
16   out.  That's what it -- it's all about charities, and
17   that's what we're there for, to make sure that y'all
18   understand that and we try to adopt these rules and
19   regulations to benefit charities.  New innovations,
20   that will make bingo better.  Because we're not moving
21   when it comes to the rules, and I think we are going to
22   discuss that and try to get something done this year,
23   because we've got to get something done every year,
24   that will better bingo.  Not this 2004, it's over; it's
25   been a bad year.  2005 we can make a difference.
0057
 1                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  Thank you.
 2                  MR. MOORE:  I believe our knowledge of
 3   the industry -- most of us have spent a lot of time in
 4   bingo halls and I think it obviously -- when you're in
 5   the trenches, you see what's really going on out there,
 6   and I think that helps when we assist the staff in rule
 7   making.  We also have done a lot of subcommittees that
 8   I think have been beneficial to both parties to know
 9   where we're headed on things, so I really think that's
10   important.
11                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  Okay.  Thank you.
12   Now we'll ask the commissioners and then we'll go to
13   industry and public.
14                  COMMISSIONER COX:  Well, I think that
15   certainly, this advisory group, I think of it as
16   communications interface, that we're getting advice
17   from people who are knowledgeable themselves, but
18   they're also representatives of the various constituent
19   groups of bingo, and I look to the them to advise us
20   not only as to what they believe, but what the group
21   they represent believes.
22                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  Thank you.
23                  CHAIRMAN CLOWE:  I think that's right,
24   but I want to make a comment about the focus of the
25   issues that come up through the BAC, and it's been
0058
 1   touched on here this morning a couple of times about,
 2   you know, we bring these issues to you and we keep
 3   telling you over and over again, although, we know
 4   that's not within your authority, we want to tell you
 5   and we want to talk to you about it, and I think an
 6   area that the Bingo Advisory Committee can help the
 7   industry in that is being overlooked is in the
 8   communication of these wants and needs within the
 9   industry and not as a group.  Because you can't have
10   the Bingo Advisory Committee endorsing legislation any
11   more than the commissioner can endorse legislation.
12                  But it's a meeting like this that brings
13   the kind of constituency show to the surface that the
14   bingo industry, I don't think, has had during the time
15   that I've been on this board.  I've seen this improve
16   over the years and I've seen a more active
17   constituency, which is what legislators listen to, and
18   I think, beyond advising the Commissioners -- and I
19   think you have today the most responsive commissioner
20   panel you've ever had in, anyway, my six years on this
21   panel, and I think it's time now for you to look at
22   yourselves and say, well, you know, as industry
23   representatives and advisors to the commissioners,
24   maybe we ought to be telling this story back to the
25   industry more than we are and not as a group, because
0059
 1   you're not authorized to speak as a group to the
 2   industry, but as individuals.
 3                  You know, if you could get the kind of
 4   audience as industry representatives that we have in
 5   this room here today, the word, I think, would be
 6   better out in the bingo industry about needs and wants
 7   to the legislature.  That's where a great focus of your
 8   message, I think, needs to be directed and I think
 9   we're overlooking this, quite frankly.  I think so much
10   of your focus has been in this venue, and that's
11   understandable because you are called together to
12   advise the Commission, but I think we've got to
13   recognize that we've gone beyond where we wanted to be
14   four or five years ago.
15                  Boy, you've got a responsive Commission.
16   Here we all are together in this room and we're talking
17   with agreement, generally, about things that need to
18   happen.  Well, we can sit here for the next three years
19   and do what we're doing now and we won't get what you
20   folks are saying you need, so I think maybe you've got
21   to turn and reflect some of this message back out into
22   the industry and mobilize your constituency and make
23   '05 and '06 and '07 and '08 years that improve your
24   industry's activities.  That's what I'm thinking about
25   right now.  More of the same, I think we're going to
0060
 1   get tired.  We're going to wear ourselves out.
 2                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  Okay.
 3                  COMMISSIONER OLVERA:  I would reiterate
 4   that theme.  I think, as Ms. Rogers had said, that
 5   you're the eyes, ears, and voice of the bingo
 6   community.  Well, yes, you educate us and, yes, you are
 7   the advisory panel for us, but I think the role of the
 8   BAC should also be to educate your constituents.  If
 9   you educate your constituents, that helps us.  I mean,
10   I've lost count of how many complaints I get from
11   constituents that the inherent complaint is something
12   that I can't do anything about and I have to give a
13   very frustrating answer saying, look, I don't have a
14   gun, I don't have a badge, I can't go close down this
15   eight-liner parlor, I can't close down this poker
16   tournament, or whatever the case may be.  The
17   constituents need to be educated as to what we can do
18   and what you can do and our limitations and that way
19   they can effectively use their voice to attempt to get
20   something done.
21                  CHAIRMAN CLOWE:  And I think if the
22   lawyers were here, they would -- they would be on top
23   of me right now saying, well, now, you can't tell them
24   to go out and have meetings and create agendas, you
25   know, because the BAC is authorized as an advisory
0061
 1   group to the Commission.
 2                  And from my experience of being where
 3   you are, which is being regulated more then being a
 4   regulator, I think, well, how did we used to do this
 5   when I was in the trucking industry?  Well, we had a
 6   trade association.  We had a forum where we grouped
 7   together.
 8                  You see, you-all are the most
 9   knowledgeable people in the bingo industry, I think.
10   You should be.  And to be able to serve your industry
11   through some venue, not as BAC members, but in
12   something, you tap into that knowledge and that
13   information that you have and you can benefit your
14   industry.  And people who work in the industry are very
15   powerful.  When you hire a lobbyist and you hire
16   people, that's a great resource.
17                  MS. TAYLOR:  May I respond to that?
18                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  Certainly.
19                  MS. TAYLOR:  There are many trade
20   associations already in bingo.  We have many lobbyists.
21   We have somebody here today that's going to talk to
22   you.  It's not that we don't have the trade
23   associations.  It's not that they're not out there
24   working, but without the help from the staff as a
25   resource and the commissioners as a resource to the
0062
 1   legislators, it's a long uphill battle.
 2                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  We're gong to talk
 3   about goals for each of these entities in just a little
 4   while, so that would be a great thing for you to hold
 5   that thought when we come to goals, because I don't
 6   want to get off the brainstorming of the role of the
 7   BAC.  Do you have a comment on the brainstorming of the
 8   role of the BAC?
 9                  MR. WHITTINGTON:  Well, I think what I'm
10   about to say is probably going to fit under the topic
11   of the next --
12                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  The goals?
13                  MR. WHITTINGTON:  Yes.
14                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  Okay.  Would you be
15   willing to save that thought until then?
16                  MR. WHITTINGTON:  Yes.
17                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  Be sure and write
18   it down; we don't want to lose it.
19                  MR. WHITTINGTON:  I don't want to lose
20   this.
21                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  Okay.  Thank you.
22                  Public, brainstorming comments form the
23   public on the role of the BAC.  You must have filled
24   out one of these sheets in order to comment.  I'm happy
25   for you to fill that out real quickly so that we can
0063
 1   get your comment.
 2                  Yes, ma'am.
 3                  MS. HERBST:  Ann Herbst.  I like
 4   Commissioner Clowe's comment about a two-way street.
 5   It needs to be both ways, to us individual charities
 6   all the way up to the commissioners, both ways, for the
 7   BAC to communicate back and forth.  I like that.
 8                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  Thank you.  Next.
 9                  MR. BRESNEN:  Thank you.  Steve Bresnen
10   on behalf of the Bingo Interest Group.  I agree with
11   you, Mr. Chairman, about the need for the BAC members
12   to speak to the industry, and we're doing that, and
13   when we get under the role of the industry, I'll talk
14   about that in some detail, if I might.
15                  More specifically on the BAC, they've
16   been reviewing rules, proposed rules, and I think
17   they've been doing a really good job of that.  That
18   processes I think, although tedious for everybody
19   involved, seems to be working well.  I'd like to see
20   the BAC think about proposing new roles or revisions
21   for old rules, again, to look for streamlining and
22   reducing the regulatory burden.
23                  I like the idea that they're working to
24   identify specific new games and, more important, I'd
25   like to see us go beyond just the, you know, saying
0064
 1   progressive bingo and talk about the details of that,
 2   how would that work, would there be any limit, you
 3   know, a little bit more on the mechanics, so, you guys,
 4   when that comes up there, you're not just betting on a
 5   slogan, you're betting on something that's got bells
 6   and whistles.  And, now, I know Commissioner Cox always
 7   asks me hard questions about how things will work, so I
 8   think we've got to do in order for y'all to be able to
 9   do your role.
10                  I would like for the BAC to identify to
11   y'all specific changes in the Bingo Enabling Act that
12   need to be made.  I can assure you -- we've got about
13   ten lobbyists here today, and I can assure you, we can
14   get you asked by the legislature what those changes
15   need to be so your roles are respected.  I would like
16   to see the BAC recommend methods of reporting data to
17   y'all that fill in the blanks and give y'all some of
18   the answers that you need.
19                  We talked last time about, for example,
20   how much rent is paid or commercial lessors gouging
21   people; that's something you've heard for years and
22   years.  Well, I know it's not because I've cranked the
23   numbers.  I'd like to see this group producing a format
24   of information to y'all so, when you get asked those
25   questions out there, you know what it is.  Also, I'd
0065
 1   like for the BAC to consider the priorities for the
 2   bingo division and make recommendations to y'all if
 3   they think that the resources might be better allocated
 4   to ferreting out the bad guys and leaving the good guys
 5   alone, or, you know, whatever it might be.  That's just
 6   my idea.  Thanks.
 7                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  Okay.  Next?
 8   Comments on the role of the BAC anybody that has a
 9   sheet turned in?
10                  Sir, do I have a sheet from you?
11                  MR. HARGETT:  Yes.  Kent Hargett, Texas
12   Charity Advocates.  I believe the BAC is a conduit to
13   the commissioners for what's going on in bingo, and
14   with charities and halls all over the state, I think
15   it's an essential conduit.  It's probably hard enough
16   for y'all to get an accurate picture with the BAC and
17   it's probably just about impossible without the BAC, so
18   I think it's a conduit of information about the status
19   of things.  It's very important.
20                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  Okay.  Any other
21   comments from the public?
22                  Okay.  At this time on our agenda, we
23   show a break.
24                  CHAIRMAN CLOWE:  Carol, what about the
25   role of the industry?
0066
 1                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  Oh.  Thank you so
 2   much.  See, facilitation is a group activity.
 3                  MR. ATKINS:  Carol, are you going to let
 4   the staff comment on the role of the BAC.
 5                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  I am.  I am.  Thank
 6   y'all for keeping me straight here.
 7                  Okay.  Several people need the finish
 8   commenting on on the role of the BAC.  Thank you very
 9   much.  Thank you, Billy.  And we'll first hear from the
10   staff.
11                  MR. ATKINS:  I would just go along
12   with -- I think Kimberly and Suzanne and Danny
13   commented on it in terms of the knowledge of the
14   industry.  One of the things that the staff looks to
15   the BAC for in very selfish term is what I'll call
16   nuts-and-bolts information and knowledge about actual
17   operations.  And, you know, setting us right if we have
18   something laid out that the process goes A, B, C, D, to
19   have them come back and say, well, actually A, B, D, C
20   is a better format, so we look for that in the
21   trenches.
22                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  Okay.  Anything
23   else?  And thank you so much.  The input from the
24   industry and the public on their role is incredibly
25   important, and please do not read anything into my
0067
 1   mistake in leaving that out before I wanted to go to
 2   break.  No inferences please.
 3                  So the question is:  What do you see the
 4   role of industry and the public -- and we'll group
 5   those together -- to be in Charitable Bingo?
 6                  And we will begin with the industry.
 7   And I have a sheet from you?
 8                  MR. HEINLEIN:  Yes, you do.
 9                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  Thank you.
10                  MR. HEINLEIN:  David Heinlein.  I
11   represent a number of charities.  I do their
12   bookkeeping and recordkeeping.  I do believe that the
13   industry has a tremendous role to play and it probably
14   has been very negligence, and I really appreciate
15   Commissioner Clowe's attendance in the meetings over
16   the last two years, I suppose, or a little bit longer,
17   and he has really pointed out some of the deficiencies
18   that we've had as an industry.  He's said over and over
19   in meetings that we as charities are going to have to
20   tell our own story.
21                  And I want you to know, Commissioner
22   Clowe, that we have taken that to heart and we are
23   recognizing that as an industry-wide problem that we
24   have not been able to do in the past effectively and so
25   we have begun a new group called the Texas Charity
0068
 1   Advocates.  I passed out the beginning book that we're
 2   producing, or we're attempting to produce with the help
 3   of other charities, and I'm testifying right now about
 4   the industry's responsibility.  Because there's a lot
 5   of people here in the industry that I'm not aware of.
 6   We have a number of our charities here.  I have not
 7   just counted all of them, but I see a lot of them.  I
 8   think we have at least 12 or 13 of our charities that
 9   are represented here this morning who have given and
10   participated in this drafting of this product.
11                  And I think this product goes along way
12   in answering the questions that the legislators are
13   asking to as a Commission and the Charitable Bingo
14   staff, and that is, why should we even have Charitable
15   Bingo in Texas?  I think it's an important question
16   that the legislator does need to ask and he needs to
17   ask what is it that we're doing with those funds, and I
18   just think, as an industry, we must take our
19   responsibility of responding.
20                  You're attempting to do that, and,
21   certainly, Billy has with his staff come up with some
22   new bingo forms and that we'll begin to fill out next
23   quarter that will begin to provide some of that
24   information that you've been asked to provide, and that
25   is the use of those proceeds that are being received by
0069
 1   Charitable Bingo, but we have a legislative session
 2   that's going to convene January the 11th and I think
 3   that the staff is going to be unable to provide some of
 4   that information that the legislature is asking for.
 5                  So, I think we as an industry -- and we
 6   need to all be thinking about this -- we have the
 7   responsibility laid upon us -- Commissioner Clowe has
 8   made it very clear to us -- we're going to be the best
 9   spokesman out there to the legislate to tell them why
10   should we have Charitable Bingo in Texas and then to
11   show them what we have actually are able to do with
12   those funds, and I think it's important and vital
13   important that we do that, and so we would ask the
14   industry's help in this effort because we cannot do it
15   alone.  We've got a limited resource of persons right
16   now that we've been able to contact, so we need more
17   people to participate in that.  The industry has a
18   responsibility, too, to seek things that would benefit
19   bingo, and we have lobbyists that are, of course, going
20   to the legislature that are being spokesman for the
21   industry to go there.
22                  When we speak, though -- and it's come
23   up several times here -- how you would respond to
24   questions from the legislature, the industry needs to
25   provide you with some of those answers that you might
0070
 1   need, and that's where they will tell you -- what their
 2   consensus of opinion is, is the things that would help,
 3   and I really appreciate the work group that's been
 4   ongoing here to look at the different types of bingo,
 5   alternative styles of bingo I believe is the title of
 6   the work group, and I understand that they've done a
 7   lot of research on all kinds of different styles of
 8   bingo, and I asked one of the BAC members, Danny Moore,
 9   were any of those things, any ideas that were
10   generated, that could be begun work on without
11   legislative help, and he told me, no, there was not, so
12   all of the things it seems so far that have been
13   identified would have to be taken to the legislature.
14                  The industry has the responsibility,
15   then, to look at what did the work group come up with
16   as alternative styles of bingo?  We need to take those
17   as an industry and go to the legislature with those
18   ideas.  We've had some ideas that were done in the past
19   and we've had some very good results and we have some
20   others that would like to testify about that, perhaps,
21   as get down further into the agenda items.  Thank you.
22                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  Thank you.  Next
23   public comment on the role of the industry and the
24   public.
25                  MR. BRESNEN:  Steve Bresnen on behalf of
0071
 1   the Bingo Interest Group.  Mr. Chairman, I think part
 2   of our role is to hold the Lottery Commission
 3   accountable.  I think we've been doing that through our
 4   involvement in the rule-making process.  We're
 5   certainly not strangers to you, and I think I -- I
 6   really appreciate the role that all three of y'all have
 7   played in being receptive to this.
 8                  I think we clearly understand that we
 9   get the primary role to go to the legislature and I
10   think we've been doing that in a serious way.  I'm
11   hoping each one of y'all has received -- and I've got
12   extra copies for people in the room -- our "How to Help
13   Revive Charitable Bingo" document, which I think
14   provides good and accurate information to you about the
15   state of bingo and why instant bingo card-minders would
16   help us.  I think we've clearly got to -- we can't quit
17   doing that.  We need to tell you where the regulatory
18   burden is heavier than it needs to be or where it might
19   be done more effectively and we need to tell you to get
20   after the bad guys and leave the good guys alone.
21                  I also think -- we all know over a 20
22   year period of time that there have been some abuses in
23   bingo and it's incumbent upon us to bring reforms
24   forward to eliminate inefficiencies and abuses, and I
25   believe we've done that and we will continue to do
0072
 1   that.  I think, as a result of our efforts, I think
 2   there were copies of the House Committee on Licensing
 3   and Administrative Procedures report on the table out
 4   front, and I see some and I've got another 50 copies of
 5   those.  I think those reflect some of the work we've
 6   been doing in the interim to go to the legislature to
 7   do that.
 8                  And just real quick, I'd like to say
 9   that there are eight or ten lobbyists, most of whom are
10   in the room today, and if you'd raise your hand or
11   stand up and make yourself known.  The Distributors
12   Association, a number of manufacturers, including
13   manufacturers who are not even involved in bingo in
14   Texas at this time, commercial lessors have put up a
15   lot of money to hire some racehorses to carry these
16   messages up to the legislature, so I want everybody to
17   be aware here, we're not sitting around resting on
18   House Bill 2519.  We're going up there and do it again
19   this time if at all possible.
20                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  Thank you.  Yes,
21   ma'am.  I have a sheet for you?
22                  MS. GAY:  Yes, you do.
23                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  Okay.
24                  MS. GAY:  I have a question for
25   Mr. Bresnen because I don't know.  My name is Carol
0073
 1   Gay, Big Star Bingo.  Mr. Bresnen, when you said the
 2   card-minders, are you talking about the bingo machines?
 3                  MR. BRESNEN:  Yes, ma'am.  For instant
 4   bingo and electronic pull tabs.
 5                  MS. GAY:  All right.  Thank you.
 6                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  Other public
 7   comments about industry, slash, public's role in
 8   Charitable Bingo?
 9                  Okay.  Have we asked everybody all
10   stakeholder groups?  Did I leave anybody out?
11                  MR. ATKINS:  I don't think you asked
12   this group about the industry or public.
13                  CHAIRMAN CLOWE:  Let's take a break.
14                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  No, no.  Let's do
15   it.  I really don't need a break that bad.
16                  CHAIRMAN CLOWE:  You have to think of
17   the reporter; she was been working real hard.
18                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  That's true, she
19   has.  Okay.  We'll have a break right now.
20                  (A short break was taken)
21                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  Okay.  Are there
22   any lasting comments from the industry on the
23   industry's role in Charitable Bingo?
24                  Okay.  We're going to move to the
25   commissioners, asking to commissioners to brainstorm
0074
 1   the question, the industry, slash, public's a role in
 2   Charitable Bingo.  Commissioner Cox?
 3                  COMMISSIONER COX:  I don't have a thing
 4   to add.  I'm just pleased to see that the -- I don't
 5   have a thing to add.  I'm just pleased to see that the
 6   public understands the role exactly the same way I do.
 7                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  Terrific.  Thank
 8   you.
 9                  CHAIRMAN CLOWE:  I agree with
10   Commissioner Cox except I'd like to add that the level
11   of participation and the level of involvement that we
12   see here today with the BAC and beyond to the industry
13   is, in my mind, the way to achieve results that we're
14   all focused on.  Without that, I don't think any of the
15   progress that everyone has been talking about so far
16   this morning is achievable.
17                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  Thank you.
18                  COMMISSIONER OLVERA:  I would concur and
19   I would encourage every lobbyist here to get a
20   transcript of this meeting as a tool.
21                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  Billy?
22                  MR. ATKINS:  Well, I want to add a
23   little different dimension.  I see the industry as
24   being both the lobbyists that we've talked about but
25   also the licensees, and I see an important part of
0075
 1   their roles as being advocates.  And then I see the
 2   public being another component that we haven't talked
 3   about, and that is to a degree the players, people who
 4   take part in the games, and, you know, they're really
 5   what drives a lot of it, and like any other, I guess,
 6   capitalistic activity, I think they vote with their
 7   dollars, and I think one of the things we're seeing
 8   with the public is that they're taking their dollars
 9   elsewhere.
10                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  And so the role of
11   the industry concerning -- that last concern would be?
12                  MR. ATKINS:  Well, I see the role of
13   industry has being advocates, and I think part of the
14   way that they would learn what to advocate for is from
15   the public.
16                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  I see.  Thank you.
17   The BAC, how do you see the industry, slash, public's
18   role?
19                  MS. TAYLOR:  The commissioners' role,
20   the Lottery Commission's role, the BAC's role, we're
21   handcuffed because of rules and regulations.  We can't
22   lobby, so all we can do is plead with those members of
23   the public and the lobbyists to work on the ideas that
24   the industry as a whole feels are good ideas.  It's
25   really hard for me to separate industry and say Danny
0076
 1   is only interested in manufacturing and distributing or
 2   Larry is only interested in charities and I'm only
 3   interested in commercial halls because without the
 4   charities, it all comes down to the charities and how
 5   well the charity is doing, but without them, none of us
 6   are going to live; we're all going to die.  So, it's
 7   real hard for me to always separate what is in the
 8   interest of a commercial lessor to what's the interest
 9   of a charity, because whatever is in the interest of a
10   charity is in my interest.  If it's not in the interest
11   of a charity, then it's not in my interest either, and
12   I think that probably goes for all the members of the
13   BAC.  You know, what's good for the goose is good for
14   the gander, and I truly feel that that is how we all
15   have to survive in this industry.  The public, the
16   manufacturers, the lobbyists, they all have to be out
17   there campaigning because we as a group cannot go out
18   there and campaign.
19                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  Kim?
20                  MS. ROGERS:  I agree with Suzanne.  We
21   all depend on one another, you know, but it's also very
22   essential as far as the public, their roles, in the --
23   and when I say public, I mean the players, I mean the
24   charities themselves -- to get out there and let the
25   players know what the money -- where it goes, what you
0077
 1   do with it, whether it's posting up pictures, whether
 2   it's -- you know, advise your charities to go and let
 3   their family members -- let them all know.  Word of
 4   mouth is a very, very powerful thing, so it's a great
 5   form of a advertising.  It's not the only advertising
 6   that we need, but it is one of those that we have total
 7   control of and we need to take control of the public
 8   and do that.
 9                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  Pete?
10                  MR. PAVLOVSKY:  I agree with Kim that
11   Word-of-mouth advertising is probably the best
12   advertising we can get.  I see the industry as
13   suppliers of products and suppliers of information.
14   That information should be supplied to the lessors and
15   to the players.  I see the players -- or, the public as
16   the players; I see them as our supporters of the
17   organizations, of the charities.  That's the bottom
18   line.  Thank you.
19                  MR. DOUGHERTY:  I can't add anything to
20   what they said.
21                  MR. MANIO:  I think enough has been said
22   about the industry.  I do not care to add anymore about
23   that, but I'd like to focus on the public because this
24   is the end user of our products.  They are the ones who
25   spend the money for bingo.  They are the ones that
0078
 1   provide money to the charities.  These are the people
 2   that we need to reach either by direct contact, by
 3   promotion, by word of mouth, so I cannot underestimate
 4   the importance of the public.
 5                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  Thank you.
 6                  MR. WHITTINGTON:  I got to add, when it
 7   comes to the public, I think we have started to adapt.
 8   In our bingo halls, we try to have at least 30 seconds
 9   to a minute to tell the people what bingo is all about,
10   what they are there for, when they come in our halls.
11   When you come and spend your money, you're spending
12   this for -- I would name the charities that day who the
13   people are playing for so they'll know.  And a lot of
14   people come to me and say, really, I'm not aware of
15   that, where that money is spent for charities.  And
16   anybody in bingo, commercial lessors or the charities,
17   the bingo halls are surviving.  Believe me, they don't
18   want money being spent nowhere else but in bingo
19   because it takes every penny to survive these days.
20                  So, as far as the charities themselves,
21   I try to encourage my charities to make sure you tell
22   everybody to come out and play bingo for you, not only
23   for fundraisers that you're doing within your charity,
24   but tell them to come and play bingo because that's a
25   fundraiser, too, for the charities as well.
0079
 1                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  Thank you.
 2                  MR. MOORE:  As a distributor, obviously
 3   I'm a part of the industry and pretty much the sounding
 4   board of a lot of halls throughout the state and I hear
 5   a lot of the problems, and it's obvious that we have to
 6   keep educating these people and I do it.  I know Ken
 7   Griff, Jane Thompson, other distributors, we work
 8   together.  We have an association that we're paying
 9   lobbyists, also, and we're very interested in
10   increasing the bottom line, if you will, of the
11   charities.
12                  The cost in a bingo hall is pretty much
13   static now.  They've cut personnel, whatever.  They've
14   cut out expenditures and they're still not making ends
15   meet, so it's obvious that we have to try to facilitate
16   some changes.
17                  I lost my train of thought, but maybe
18   I'll get back to it.  Thanks.
19                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  You want a second?
20   We're not in a hurry.
21                  MR. MOORE:  No.  Thank you.
22                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  Has everyone had an
23   opportunity to comment on the role of the industry and
24   the public?
25                  Yes, ma'am.  Do I have a sheet for you?
0080
 1                  MS. YOUNG:  Yes. My name is Melissa
 2   Young and I'm with the Texas Charity Advocates.  We're
 3   doing -- what we've started to do is, we worked with
 4   what the commissioners are asking for and what industry
 5   really needs, which is to represent the charities, to
 6   the legislators as well as to the public because I
 7   think it does make a difference to the people in the
 8   communities.  I think they'll go out there and play if
 9   they know what they're supporting and the good that
10   comes from it, so if anybody has anything from the
11   industry, we're always looking for more information to
12   support you guys out there, so thank you very much
13                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  And you're
14   organization is?
15                  MS. YOUNG:  The Texas Charity Advocates.
16                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  Thank you.  Anybody
17   else?
18                  MR. HARGETT:  Ken Hargett.  We have two
19   Texas Charity Advocates people in the room.  I'm with
20   the charity working on this organization and we're
21   going to try to make the thing understandable, the
22   situation understandable, to the public as far as what
23   the charities are doing and public impact of the
24   fundraising through Charitable Bingo and, in some
25   cases, take the case of the charity operators to the
0081
 1   state and whatever, you know, the commissioners, the
 2   legislature, wherever it needs to go.  And so taking
 3   the advise -- and notice the comments that the
 4   commissioners are talking about, Commissioner Cox spoke
 5   about the Georgia Lottery, their representations about
 6   the public service use of that money, and so we're
 7   going to pretty much take the ball and run with it.
 8                  I worked with charities for over 20
 9   years.  A lot of charities would use bingo and a lot of
10   them didn't, and I'd like to see the dialog go in the
11   direction of focusing on the charities and the business
12   to be a system that serves the charities financially so
13   that the charities and the public service organizations
14   can serve the community.
15                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  Thank you.  Anybody
16   else?
17                  What I had on the agenda next was for
18   each respective group to go to their list and mark it,
19   and that's a little bit of the logistical challenge, so
20   what I'd like to propose that we do instead is for each
21   group -- in other words, the commissioners would go
22   over and visit the list of what people said they saw
23   their role to be and anything that you disagree with or
24   that have a concern about, you would make a note of and
25   then you would come back and we would talk about that,
0082
 1   and each stakeholder group will have an opportunity to
 2   do that.
 3                  I know it's very difficult for all of
 4   y'all to go see everything that was put up there for
 5   industry, slash, the public to do, so I suspect you
 6   have your people that you turn to that might could do
 7   that and represent the industry and the public.
 8                  And then the BAC -- Suzanne, if y'all
 9   will visit your list, come back prepared to comment on
10   the things that you have a concern about or that you
11   flat disagree with and be willing the share what causes
12   you to have that concern, as briefly as possible.
13                  It's just for the record so that
14   everybody doesn't think that everything we've put up on
15   there, everyone agrees with.  Maybe there's some law
16   that prevents someone from doing something and that
17   needs to be addressed and clarified, so this is just a
18   short exercise to clarify anything that might be a
19   misunderstanding or an assumption on someone's part
20   that is inaccurate or that you disagree with in terms
21   of your role.  Make sense?  Okay.  I see a few confused
22   looks.
23                  MS. JOSEPH:  Are you suggesting that the
24   people all get with their group?  I'm concerned about
25   the public record, making the record.
0083
 1                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  Okay.  While you go
 2   and look at your list, there will be no open
 3   discussion.  The commissioners can't stand at their
 4   list and talk about what they think.
 5                  CHAIRMAN CLOWE:  And the BAC members
 6   cannot do that either.  We're both in the open, on the
 7   record, so we can physically walk and look, but we
 8   cannot discuss and then we've got to come back and
 9   discuss on the record in the public.
10                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  Thank you for
11   clarifying that.  And this is a little confusing, so
12   bear with me.  It's not going to be as hard as it
13   sounds.  Explaining it is the hardest part.
14                  So the BAC is going to go look at the
15   BAC's role that everybody brainstormed.  The public is
16   going to look at their role.  The commissioners are
17   going to look at their role Billy is going to look at
18   his role.  No talking by the people up here.  Then
19   we're going to sit down and each group is going to
20   share any concerns or disagreements they have with what
21   their role is brainstormed.  Make sense?  So we're
22   going to take less than ten minutes for people to go
23   look at the list and come back.
24                  MS. JOSEPH:  Carol, I suggest you go off
25   the record.
0084
 1                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  Okay.  We'll go off
 2   the record during which their looking at the list.
 3                  (A short break was taken.)
 4                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  Welcome back.  I
 5   hope everybody had a chance to kind of review their
 6   list.  All right.  So, I'd like to turn to the
 7   commissioners first and let them comment on the things
 8   that people defined as their role that they either
 9   strongly support -- although, we're basically talking
10   about what you don't agree with or what you have
11   concern about in terms of other's perceptions of your
12   role, and we will only be asking them about their role,
13   Billy about his role.  We won't be having everyone
14   comment on their role again because we did that part.
15                  COMMISSIONER OLVERA:  Shall I start?
16                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  Please.
17                  COMMISSIONER OLVERA:  Well, from the
18   list that lists the role of the commissioners, the
19   items that I marked down that I disagree with or
20   require clarification were as follows:  The first one
21   that comes to mind was, there was an issue of law
22   enforcement, and I wasn't sure what that meant with
23   respect to two issues.  Number one, law enforcement as
24   it comes to bingo in and of itself, we are limited in
25   what we can do.  Law enforcement with respect to
0085
 1   attacking outside interests such as video lottery
 2   terminals or poker tournaments or even internet
 3   gambling, we have no police power; we have no
 4   jurisdiction.  Obviously, that falls within law
 5   enforcement, vis a vis, the local DA, and that's
 6   something that I need clarified.
 7                  When it came to law, I'm not sure
 8   whether that also referred to the issues of rule making
 9   and I think that's something that needs to be
10   clarified, in that, we as a commission, number one, are
11   bound by statute and there's a perception that we can
12   just make up rules to fix problems.  Well, it's my
13   understanding both as a commissioner and as a lawyer
14   that the rule making process is, once again, limited in
15   scope in the sense that we can only clarify and make
16   more efficient existing statutes.  We cannot create a
17   rule or a new law that would somehow expand the Bingo
18   Enabling Act.  That is not within our jurisdiction.
19   So, those were my comments, not necessarily
20   disagreements, with the issue of law enforcement that
21   was listed under the role of the Commission.
22                  The second item that I wrote down was a
23   resource to the legislature and resource to the
24   Executive Branch.  Well, once again, I think this was
25   already mentioned by Commissioner Cox and Commissioner
0086
 1   Clowe, we cannot, by law, lobby as an entity, so we are
 2   limited to the extent that we really are a resource.
 3   It's not like the legislators or the senators or the
 4   representatives are calling me and asking me how to fix
 5   bingo.  It's limited in scope and it's limited in how I
 6   can respond.
 7                  I think the strongest voice that the
 8   industry has really is the charities.  Keep in mind
 9   that, whether it's a local DA or whether it's a member
10   of the Legislative Branch from your district, the most
11   effective voice that bingo has is a charity.  If you
12   want something done, all of these folks are
13   politicians, and they will listen to a charity much
14   more than either a Lottery Commissioner or perhaps a
15   bingo operator.  And I'm just -- that's a very general
16   assumption, but I think, once again, the theme of
17   assumption is that somehow I have power to affect
18   legislation or power to change the statute as some kind
19   of resource, and I think that's overestimated in the
20   public's mind.  I think that's an assumption that the
21   public has or the bingo industry has that I can somehow
22   change the Bingo Enabling Act or enact rules that
23   somehow fix the problem, and I think that needs
24   clarification.
25                  And the third item from the list, once
0087
 1   again, that I thought needed clarification was the
 2   issue of advertising.  I know it was already mentioned,
 3   but, once again, I cannot change the rules in terms of
 4   how bingo is advertised.
 5                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  May I ask you a
 6   question?
 7                  COMMISSIONER OLVERA:  Yes, you may.
 8                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  The question came
 9   up earlier, if you would -- if I understood directly,
10   if the commissioners would served as a resource if
11   contacted by legislators, so would you be willing to
12   comment on that aspect of serving as a resource as
13   opposed to being an advocate?  How do you see that?
14                  COMMISSIONER OLVERA:  Well, once again,
15   it's a fine line.  In any conversation, number one, you
16   have to set up some preparatory guidelines saying, if
17   someone were to call me, I would have to say, now, you
18   have to understand, as a commissioner, I cannot
19   advocate a position, but I could attempt to educate and
20   say, my understanding of the industry problems are X,
21   Y, and Z, but, once again, it would be a very general
22   discussion, and obviously, I am -- well, I wouldn't say
23   I'm rookie anymore.  I've been here over a year, but to
24   date, it has not happened.
25                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  So if I understand,
0088
 1   if a legislator calls you and says, "Here's a situation
 2   that's being proposed by industry, Rollie, do you
 3   support that," are you at liberty to answer that or you
 4   are not at liberty to answer that?
 5                  COMMISSIONER OLVERA:  I would be very
 6   hesitant to answer it and obviously I would explain
 7   why, just say, I cannot -- obviously, as a
 8   commissioner, it's my job to regulate the industry, so
 9   I could not publicly make a comment that I'm in favor
10   of X, Y, or Z because that could potentially then
11   somehow bar me from a future hearing in the sense, if
12   I've already taken a position one way, I could not sit
13   here objectively and in the future hear a case that
14   could conceivably be opposite of a position I've
15   already taken, so that would be my attempt to explain
16   why I cannot advocate or lobby to the legislature.
17                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  When you said a
18   public comment, does everything you just said apply to
19   a private comment as well?  You said you couldn't make
20   a public comment, does that apply to a private comment
21   as well?
22                  COMMISSIONER OLVERA:  That would be
23   correct.
24                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  Okay.  Thank you.
25                  CHAIRMAN CLOWE:  In regard to the issue
0089
 1   about law enforcement, I guess I took a more specific
 2   view taking that to mean that we will enforce, through
 3   our rule making, the laws which exist on the book, and
 4   I thought we should do that and are doing that.  For
 5   example, we vote to revoke licenses and that sort of
 6   thing when it comes to the level of the Commission.
 7   The commissioners all attend every meeting, and when
 8   issues come up, I think every commissioner has always
 9   voted on every issue or they did not, for any reason
10   that was correct, need not to vote on it, so I think,
11   you know, when you have a three-person Commission, they
12   either perform or they don't and you know it, and these
13   commissioners perform.
14                  On the advertisement issue -- and I'd
15   like to come back to that since we brushed on that one
16   and said we'd come back to it -- I think it's helpful
17   if you compare what goes on in the lottery to bingo.
18   In the lottery, there is a budget for advertisement,
19   and, again, as I've said earlier to you, the state owns
20   that; the state promotes that; the state's business is
21   running the lottery.  Bingo is very difficult.  Bingo
22   is not the state's business; the state regulates it.
23   So, if there is to be advertisement of bingo in a way
24   that I think we are hearing it discussed here, that's
25   got to be done by the private interests.  We are able
0090
 1   to give bingo attention in the Lottery Commission from
 2   time to time, and Billy and the staff have made a real
 3   effort to do that.
 4                  There's been mention of bingo on instant
 5   tickets, it's on the recording when you call here about
 6   bingo, where is you closest local hall, and that sort
 7   of thing.  I think within proper practice, the
 8   Commission does what it can to support the knowledge
 9   about bingo and bingo games in the state, but I think
10   that falls short of what the industry wants at this
11   point in time.  They really want advertising and
12   there's no money in the bingo division for that.  The
13   legislature didn't create any funding for that, so that
14   is an issue that's outside of the authority of the
15   Commission and that is one that I would say has to be
16   struck in the list.  It's just written up there one
17   word, advertisement or advertising, and I just don't
18   see that as being a proper thing.
19                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  Thank you.
20                  COMMISSIONER COX:  The only concern I
21   had was one of the comments I heard that did not make
22   the list, and that was, Mario, your comment, your
23   concern, that the board did not devote sufficient time
24   or resources to bingo.  And I want to hear more from
25   you on your perception there.  I'll tell you how I view
0091
 1   that:  One, either Chairman Clowe or I comes to every
 2   Bingo Advisory Committee and typically we split it so
 3   that he'll come for part of the meeting and I'll come
 4   for part of the meeting so that y'all will have access
 5   to both of us at the meeting.  I try to make -- I make
 6   myself available to Billy and his staff whenever they
 7   need input from me or need to inform me on something,
 8   and it seems that our agendas are very well balanced,
 9   in that, there's always time for Billy and his staff to
10   present to us what they need to present and for the
11   public to comment on what they'd like to comment on at
12   our meetings, so I'd like to hear from you how you
13   would balance it differently.
14                  MR. MANIO:  I guess I'm on the spot
15   here.
16                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  A little bit.
17                  MR. MANIO:  If I recall, my comment was,
18   that was my perception as well as the perception of
19   some people that I had spoken with in the past, and I
20   don't really know how we can balance that.  I mean, how
21   do you fight the perception in the first place?  I
22   think this is what we are finding in here.  The reality
23   was very well explained just now by you, and that's
24   different, you know, than the perception.
25                  CHAIRMAN CLOWE:  And I think you made
0092
 1   that clear.  I think I understand what you're saying.
 2   It's a perception that's out there, which is maybe
 3   something from the past, but Commissioner Cox has
 4   clearly stated the efforts that are being made and have
 5   been made.  You know, this meeting is a great example,
 6   but how you deal with a perception.  Is that helpful?
 7                  COMMISSIONER COX:  And I clearly heard
 8   that he said perceptions.  And reality, I can't deal
 9   with, only perceptions of reality, and your perception
10   is important.  Because we have tried to do things that
11   haven't been done in the past that show that we are
12   committed to the side of our job that deals with bingo
13   and I'm concerned that that perception remains.
14                  MR. MANIO:  I'm deeply concerned myself
15   about that perception, because unless the perception in
16   the public's mind is corrected -- I mean, it's now
17   being left over with the public in the bingo business,
18   and I don't have any answers on how we can do that.
19   Probably better communication to the public on what
20   exactly what we're doing or the Commission is doing
21   regarding bingo.
22                  CHAIRMAN CLOWE:  And I think that was
23   manifested in discussions in the last Sunset hearing
24   where the issue was tabled, well you know, maybe there
25   ought to be a commission within the Commission for
0093
 1   bingo or maybe bingo ought to have its own commission,
 2   and I encouraged those discussions.  Because I think
 3   whatever will help bingo and give it the best
 4   regulation is where I'd like to see that go, as one
 5   commissioner, but that's not what the Sunset Committee
 6   recommended, and so I think within the Lottery
 7   Commission, if bingo is going to stay here, we want to
 8   work with that perception the best that we can.  And
 9   then have to be fair.  We cannot go over good practice
10   lines and -- I'd say we would have to call on the BAC
11   members -- and those of you who are here, which many of
12   you have commented on -- to carry that message.
13                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  And we're actually
14   getting into the goals, so this is a good kickoff for
15   just a little while when we talk about the goals that
16   we see for each of those stakeholder groups.
17                  Anything else?  Okay.  I'm going to turn
18   to Billy and ask him about his -- when he reviewed his
19   list, the roles that were put up there for him, his
20   comments.
21                  MR. ATKINS:  Okay.  We did not see any
22   up there that we disagreed with.  One that we think
23   just needs a little tweaking, it says enforce rules,
24   and we're assuming that everyone knows that that also
25   includes enforcing the statute.  Rules and statutes are
0094
 1   different.
 2                  We had three that we marked with
 3   concerns, and the only reason for that is because we
 4   think they need further clarification.  There are
 5   probably things that have already been encompassed in
 6   there.  The first one dealt with support organizations
 7   of -- support operations of bingo organizations.
 8   Again, that's something we think that we do within our
 9   role as a facilitator.  Again, if people are
10   envisioning things like advertising of bingo, then
11   again, that would be something that's outside of our
12   statutory authority.
13                  Facilitate change, we're just not sure
14   what change is being talked about.  And then the last
15   one over here -- and I think either Steve Bresnen or
16   Steve Fenoglio mentioned it -- and that is, the
17   identification of the roadblocks and the opportunities
18   for bingo.  Again, just wanting to clarify our
19   authority to do that, and again not serving as an
20   advocate, but we do have -- to a degree, I think the
21   staff has a little unique position, in that, we're able
22   to look at bingo, not only from a statewide basis, but
23   we also have a pretty effective opportunity to look at
24   it across North America, so we do get a lot of
25   information that I think is valuable, or can be
0095
 1   valuable, to the commissioners, to the BAC, to the
 2   industry, to the legislature, et cetera, that we're
 3   more than willing to share, but we just want to make
 4   sure we share it appropriately.
 5                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  Okay.  And then
 6   we'll turn to the BAC, and they will individually
 7   respond to what they read since they weren't able to
 8   collude when looking at the list.
 9                  MS. TAYLOR:  I guess I'll start on this,
10   I saw two that concerned me on the list.  The first one
11   was mobilize the industry.  Because, as the Bingo
12   Advisory Committee, we're handcuffed, in that, as a
13   group, we're supposed to respond to the commissioners.
14   We're not supposed to be out there as a group
15   advocating anything.  As individuals yes, but as a
16   group -- and we're talking about this is the Bingo
17   Advisory Committee -- we're pretty much chained in what
18   we can and can't do.
19                  The other one is to educate the
20   constituents.  And, once again, we've been advised
21   several times that if somebody calls us with questions
22   about a rule or with a problem they have in their hall,
23   we're supposed to direct them back to the Lottery
24   Commission.  So, again, because of what we've been
25   given to do within the law, there are some of those
0096
 1   things that I have concerns with, and those two I don't
 2   feel that we can actually do.
 3                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  Sandy, did you get
 4   that?
 5                  MS. JOSEPH:  I need to summarize the
 6   last one.
 7                  MS. TAYLOR:  Educate the constituents.
 8                  MS. JOSEPH:  Okay.  I got it.
 9                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  Okay.  Thank you.
10                  MS. ROGERS:  Okay.  I also marked down
11   the, educating the constituents, but most of the other
12   parts, I do agree with.  I don't think we are the
13   entire industry.  There's a lot of different parts of
14   it, but I do think that we are the voices that carry
15   over to the individuals who can assist us with that in
16   making changes, not doing the changes, but assist us in
17   some fashion.
18                  MR. PAVLOVSKY:  I think we need to read
19   something else into this issue we're talking about.
20   We're all individuals and we can go back and do a lot
21   of things individually that we cannot do as a group,
22   and I'd like to read that into it.
23                  MR. DOUGHERTY:  Pass.
24                  MR. MANIO:  Two items that I had
25   concerns with, probably boarding on this agreement, the
0097
 1   same items as Suzanne and Kim brought up, educate the
 2   public and mobilize.  Because I felt these are
 3   activities that we can do as individuals, but not as a
 4   group.  Now, there are several items that I agree, very
 5   strongly agree, and these are the items that were
 6   brought up by Steve Bresnen on the role of the BAC,
 7   which will be a complete change in the way the BAC has
 8   been conducting its business.  What we have done up to
 9   this point is just, the things that were given to us by
10   the staff, and those are the subject of our
11   deliberation, but what Steve is proposing is, we will
12   now take additionally and make recommendations to the
13   staff, hey, let's take a look at this and see if we can
14   improve this or if we really need this or not.
15                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  Great.
16                  MR. WHITTINGTON:  I agree with what
17   Suzanne said.  We definitely need to work together as a
18   BAC, but also alone as a personal endeavor for us to
19   benefit.
20                  MR. MOORE:  Everything is spelled out in
21   the Act as far as what the BAC members can do.  The
22   problem I might have with certain things, we have a
23   subcommittee right now in the alternative styles of
24   bingo and we talked about 11, 12 things the other
25   day -- Billy was in on it and a few other people -- and
0098
 1   I just -- we get to a point where we discuss these
 2   things, we even recommended progressive bingo, IBC's to
 3   the rest of the Committee, and at that point, it
 4   just -- I don't know where we can go from there.
 5   Obviously, we have to do it, you know, outside of this
 6   room, but it seems like what's the point of talking
 7   about it.  I don't understand where it goes from there.
 8   I really don't have an answer for it.  I feel like we
 9   could beat it up all day long in this room, but all the
10   work has to be done outside here, and sometimes I
11   wonder why we're even doing it.
12                  And I want to respond to Billy about
13   facilitating change.  That all comes back to, you know,
14   we talk about these new revenue-enhancing products, and
15   a legislator calls over here, I mean, they're going to
16   call the lottery.  I believe they're not just going to
17   make these decisions unilaterally.  They may call
18   another constituent of theirs that might know more,
19   but, I mean, that's why you have Nelda over here;
20   doesn't she handle these things for y'all?  I don't
21   understand why nobody can advocate anything.  That
22   doesn't make sense to me.  If it's good for bingo,
23   what's the problem?
24                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  I would want you to
25   clarify the word advocate.  That seems to be quite a
0099
 1   word with a lot of different meanings.
 2                  MR. MOORE:  All right.  We're all in
 3   agreement that IBC's are great.  They're going to put
 4   more money in the charities, why not support it?
 5                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  So if I understood
 6   Rollie earlier, then you could provide information and
 7   facts -- correct me if I'm wrong -- if someone asked
 8   you about -- what's the game?
 9                  MR. MOORE:  It's instant bingo
10   card-minders.
11                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  So if someone
12   asked you -- called and asked you about that, you could
13   provide data that's factual about that, including
14   fiscal estimates.  Is that correct?  I mean, if they
15   asked, the staff does that for you?  And so you can't
16   express an opinion, but you can provide data,
17   statistics, and that sort of thing?
18                  COMMISSIONER OLVERA:  If someone were to
19   call me, yes, I could relay them to the appropriate
20   resources and explain that the bingo industry is highly
21   in favor of it, it takes the position that it would
22   greatly enhance revenue, et cetera, et cetera, but if
23   they ask me, Commissioner Olvera, what's your
24   individual position, I would have to abstain from
25   saying yea or nay.  That's my understanding of a
0100
 1   statute, a law prohibiting me from lobbying in favor.
 2                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  All right.  So,
 3   Daniel, do you see the commissioner providing the data
 4   himself or referring him to somebody who can provide
 5   the data that would, in essence, support it, possibly,
 6   without a personal opinion?  Do you see that as being
 7   an advocate?  I mean, does that fall under your
 8   definition?
 9                  MR. MOORE:  I think there's a way for
10   them to answer the question and not advocate something.
11   You know, I think these three gentleman and Billy and
12   the staff are intelligent enough and we've given them
13   enough information on some of these different subjects
14   that they could answer the question and not have an
15   opinion on it; I don't know.
16                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  Okay.  All right.
17                  CHAIRMAN CLOWE:  You said you didn't
18   want us commenting on the other groups, but you're
19   allowing that now?
20                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  Well, now I've been
21   busted.
22                  CHAIRMAN CLOWE:  Well, I think in
23   fairness to the discussion, I'd like to speak up, if I
24   may?
25                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  Please do.
0101
 1                  CHAIRMAN CLOWE:  You know Commissioner
 2   Olvera is a former judge and I'm respectful of his
 3   comments and I think he gave exactly the right answer
 4   on that.  I'm a former businessman, so I have a lack of
 5   the understanding of the law that he enjoys, and I've
 6   been asked, what does bingo need, and I have responded,
 7   they need these things to be competitive.  And I think
 8   I'm okay with that as a commissioner because I've
 9   studied the industry and I have knowledge of the
10   industry, and I think when a legislator asks me that,
11   I'm going to answer.
12                  Now, if that puts me in -- and I think
13   he's very correct in what he pointed out -- if that
14   puts me in a position where later on I'm on the record
15   as having said that and I have to recuse myself from a
16   vote, then I will recuse myself and not vote on an
17   issue.  That, to me, Danny, is the difference from
18   being a resource and an advocate.  I am not going to
19   pick up the phone and call a leadership office or a
20   legislative office and say, well, you ought to do this
21   for the bingo industry.  That's an advocate and you
22   can't advocate because you're a member of the BAC as a
23   group.  The commissioners can't advocate, in my
24   opinion, as individuals.
25                  This is not the first time I've said
0102
 1   this, and you keep asking that same question, you know.
 2   You've asked it two or three times already this
 3   morning.  You've got to understand what the limits are,
 4   and you're a beating yourself up by not getting it, so
 5   to speak, Because your answer is going to be the same.
 6   It ain't going to change, and I'm concerned about your
 7   frustration and the commissioners are going to keep
 8   giving you that same answer.
 9                  MR. MOORE:  Well, if you sat at my chair
10   Monday through Friday, I invite you into my office and
11   you just listen to the conversations, then you'd know
12   my frustration.
13                  CHAIRMAN CLOWE:  Yeah, but, Danny, I sat
14   in your chair for 45 years, you know, and I kept
15   saying, well, if they just spend all their time
16   regulating the bad guys and leaving us good guys alone.
17   Listen, let me tell you who decides who the good guys
18   and the bad guys are, it's the regulators, and they
19   have to look at everybody to make that determination.
20   And nobody gets a pass.  When you go to the airport,
21   everybody goes through that metal detector unless you
22   got one of those special badges, you know, and I
23   haven't seen one of those yet.  That's what a regulator
24   does.
25                  And, Carol, I apologize, but I want to
0103
 1   drill down on this, because you are expressing this
 2   frustration that I've been chasing for years trying to
 3   get folks to understand, you've got to go to the right
 4   place to make your pitch and make your presentation.
 5   We can be reasonable, we can help to a certain extent,
 6   but that's the limit.  I mean, we're going the back
 7   away from that hot wire; we're not going to touch that
 8   hot wire.
 9                  MR. MOORE:  I think that's fair enough.
10   Thank you.
11                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  And I should have
12   clarified.  The reason that I asked about the
13   definition of advocate and went to Rollie was that the
14   ground rule -- and that's what I should have said
15   first -- is agree on what important words mean, and
16   that word just kept coming up and it kept sounding like
17   it had a lot of different meanings, so I should have
18   said why I brought wanting to drill down a little
19   further on that.  Thank you.
20                  Steve.
21                  MR. BRESNEN:  Can I just drill down,
22   too?
23                  CHAIRMAN CLOWE:  Get on the mic, Steve.
24                  MR. BRESNEN:  Steve Bresnen on behalf of
25   the Bingo Interest Group.  I think people out here have
0104
 1   heard two very distinctly different answers to Danny's
 2   question.  And, Mr. Chairman, I've been on both sides
 3   of it, too, and I think the way you put it was exactly
 4   right and I think the likelihood -- and, Rollie, I can
 5   understand how you would be concerned about voting on
 6   something later on that you had taken a public position
 7   on and had to recuse yourself, but I think that's very,
 8   very far removed from the likelihood of what may come
 9   up in your role as a regulator here.
10                  So, all we're asking is, if this BAC
11   makes a recommendation to y'all and you get contacted
12   by a legislator and you've got you and your staff's
13   minds wrapped around something, if you'll give them
14   that information and say, well, people in the bingo
15   industry tell us this will help them, my experience is
16   they need help, Billy has done a great job of producing
17   fiscal estimates and giving us feedback on the
18   administrative changes that need to be made, they do a
19   good job in being regulated.  I'm not sure we're as far
20   off as some people's frustration may seem and I
21   think -- I think you're right on target on where the
22   line is.
23                  COMMISSIONER OLVERA:  And, Steve, I
24   agree with what you said in the sense of -- once again,
25   it was a hypothetical.  In terms of whether I would
0105
 1   take a position, I think I stated I would attempt to
 2   give them all the information that I could, which I
 3   think is what you just said, but at the same token, I
 4   would stop short of saying, and I think you should vote
 5   in favor of it.
 6                  I think maybe if that's the extra step
 7   that you want me to take, then perhaps we'll have to
 8   agree to disagree, but I think if I were to provide all
 9   that information in this hypothetical, I think you
10   could gather that I am attempting to do everything
11   possible to modernize bingo.
12                  MR. BRESNEN:  Thanks.
13                  CHAIRMAN CLOWE:  And you must be
14   respectful of the judge's comment in that way because
15   he's put people in jail for less.  But, I just want to
16   point out to you the record that this Commission has
17   made in the Sunset hearings, appearing before various
18   legislative finance appropriations committees, the
19   legislative briefings.  This Commission has, I think,
20   done a great job of saying, you know, the bingo
21   industry has got problems that need to be focused on.
22   These are not issues that the Commission is ever going
23   to put on its agenda and vote on it.  It's beyond our
24   authority and they ought to throw us off if we ever do.
25                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  In the sake of
0106
 1   moving along --
 2                  CHAIRMAN CLOWE:  That was a good
 3   discussion.
 4                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  It was.
 5                  CHAIRMAN CLOWE:  You get some golden
 6   nuggets from time to time.
 7                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  And it was when I
 8   was out of line, too.  You never know.
 9                  MS. TAYLOR:  But before you move on, I
10   would like to say one thing.  Your last statement,
11   Commissioner Clowe, is exactly what we wanted to hear.
12   We want to hear that when they call and ask you
13   questions that you're going to answer them in a way
14   that will benefit us.
15                  CHAIRMAN CLOWE:  And, Suzanne, in all
16   fairness to the commissioners, I think we've been
17   saying that for the last two years.
18                  MS. TAYLOR:  And we do realize that.
19   Because we know that if the commissioners hadn't voted
20   like they did on that last Sunset proposal that
21   50 percent of the people in this room would be out of
22   bingo right now.
23                  CHAIRMAN CLOWE:  And we did vote on that
24   and we took comments, you remember?  And just -- okay.
25   That's enough.
0107
 1                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  All right.
 2   Anything else?
 3                  MR. WHITTINGTON:  Common sense, the more
 4   knowledge you have about anything, the better you're
 5   prepared to say yes.  You don't have to say, I'm going
 6   to do this, but you can definitely say yes, I know
 7   about that and they do need help.  That's a positive
 8   answer right there and that's good enough for anybody.
 9   Appreciate it.
10                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  Now the industry,
11   hopefully you've elected a spokesperson, or several of
12   you will speak that have filled out a public comment
13   sheet, on how you see the brainstorm list of your role.
14   I think y'all gave a lot of the items on the list.
15                  MR. FENOGLIO:  Steve Fenoglio.  We went
16   through the list for role of industry perspective.  We
17   agree, go to the legislature to provide info.  We
18   agree, tell the Lottery Commission where regulatory
19   burden is too heavy.  We had a concern on, point out
20   the bad guys and lighten up on the good guys.  I think
21   that was a parenthetical, but it didn't really capture
22   Mr. Bresnen's comment, which was along the line of the
23   second point, telling the Commission where the
24   regulatory burden is too heavy.  We don't see our role
25   as identifying the guys who wear the black hats, which
0108
 1   is what the bullet point was.  Utilize lobbyists, we
 2   agree with that.  We agree with, agreeing with the
 3   industry public on their role.  We agree in advocating.
 4                  We had a concern on working for industry
 5   interests on two levels.  Number one, we think it's
 6   more working for the charitable organization's
 7   interests, but within that, working -- it suggests that
 8   everyone's interest is the same, and, as the
 9   commissioners are aware, sometimes the industry
10   interests are different, or perhaps not in unanimity.
11   Educate the public, we agree with.  We got a concern on
12   word-of-mouth advertising because we weren't quite sure
13   what that meant.
14                  Finally -- or, in the second list,
15   supply info to players, we agree.  Don't underestimate
16   the importance of the public, we had a concern about
17   exactly what that meant.  Tell players about charitable
18   purpose of bingo, we agree.  Work for the common good
19   of the industry, we agree.  Provide info to charities
20   to disseminate, we agree.  Focus on purpose of bingo
21   for charity, we agree.
22                  And Mr. Bresnen and I consulted legally,
23   I might add, since we're not subject to the Open
24   Meetings Act, and we had several industry reps, but I
25   know there are other people in the room, and I'm not
0109
 1   suggesting that I speak for all of them.
 2                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  Thank you.  Who
 3   else would get like to comment on the industry, slash,
 4   public's role?  Anybody?
 5                  MS. HERBST:  I agree with what you said
 6   mainly.  My only comment is on education and
 7   advertising, and they overlap maybe a little bit.
 8   Local halls have to advertise their own halls and their
 9   own bingo and the charities need to make their local
10   communities aware of their involvement with bingo, and
11   that's very true, but I still believe that somehow the
12   Lottery Commission could educate the whole state that
13   there is Charitable Bingo out there that benefits the
14   charities of Texas, and that's what I think education
15   is, not necessarily advertising, because we can't ask
16   them to advertise for our individual halls, but there's
17   a difference between education and advertising.
18                  MR. GARCIA:  I'm sorry.  I missed -- I
19   had to step out for another meeting, but I wanted to
20   make a point on the industry, on our role.
21                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  And your name?
22                  MR. GARCIA:  My name is Joe Garcia.  And
23   one of the things that -- I think one of our roles
24   that's pointed out on the board there is that -- for
25   example, I represent a company that is in 37 other
0110
 1   jurisdictions, and I think there are sometimes
 2   regulatory elements occurring in another state that may
 3   be better or more efficient, and I think it's the role
 4   of the industry to educate the regulator as to some of
 5   those differences and why it works better than the
 6   current systems in place, why it's a better handle on
 7   the regulatory element, so I think just to -- just to
 8   kind of say that there is a role for the industry with
 9   the regulator in terms of what other ideas in the
10   regulatory framework are out there.
11                  And I know that the Commission does a
12   lot of training and a lot of seminars that it goes to
13   around the state, but sometimes the industry is aware
14   of changes that may not have occurred in this state.
15                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  And Mr. Garcia
16   brings us to our next agenda item, which we will do
17   after lunch break, which is the roles of each of these
18   groups of stakeholders.  We hope that we do not lose
19   you when we --
20                  MR. ATKINS:  Carol, if I could correct
21   you, you said the roles.
22                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  I meant goals.
23                  CHAIRMAN CLOWE:  Let me tell you,
24   Commissioner Olvera has to leave at 12:30.  Were you
25   proposing a lunch break now?
0111
 1                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  We can lunch break
 2   when you say it's lunch break.
 3                  CHAIRMAN CLOWE:  Well, you got another
 4   35 minutes of his time.
 5                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  Sure.  That would
 6   be great.
 7                  COMMISSIONER OLVERA:  And I prefer to
 8   keep going.
 9                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  You bet.
10   Absolutely, we can keep going and then we'll just break
11   at that time and take one hour for lunch.  And we hope
12   you will come back for the benefit of the rest of this
13   session because we need you all for this to be
14   effective.
15                  Any other comments on the roles that you
16   were brainstorming?  Anybody?
17                  Okay.  The next item on the agenda is to
18   talk about the goals for the next nine months.  Okay?
19   Not lofty goals, five years from now.  This is the next
20   nine months, something that we can get our hands
21   around.  And we're going to do the same type of
22   brainstorming for this particular exercise with each
23   group, and so we will first talk about the
24   commissioners' goals for the next nine months
25   concerning Charitable Bingo.  I'll start with the
0112
 1   commissioners.
 2                  COMMISSIONER OLVERA:  I'm sorry, I was
 3   busy looking at Sandy.  Goals for the next nine months?
 4                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  Goals you have for
 5   yourselves.
 6                  COMMISSIONER OLVERA:  Mr. Chairman, why
 7   don't you take the ball now.
 8                  CHAIRMAN CLOWE:  From a practical
 9   standpoint, I think, you know, the regular session
10   starts January the 11th and it's going to run for six
11   months, so, in my view, that's really the time period
12   that I'm focused on.  We are going to have some bills
13   that are going to be introduced regarding bingo --
14   that's already been alluded to -- as well as the
15   lottery.
16                  I think for myself, as a commissioner,
17   what I would like to do is stay on top of those bills
18   and be aware of them, be a resource when called upon
19   regarding what information, and to be as helpful a
20   commissioner as I can, and ask the staff to do the
21   same.  Then, after the legislature adjourns, we've got
22   to see if the governor is going to sign whatever bills
23   are passed and then we need to be focused on
24   implementation and rule making.  So, to me, it's a
25   pretty myopic time period in '05 of just watching what
0113
 1   happens in this regular legislative session.  I would
 2   add, to keep this open interchange between the members
 3   of the industry, the staff, and the commissioners as an
 4   ongoing effort.
 5                  Did that give you time to think?
 6                  COMMISSIONER OLVERA:  And that brings up
 7   a very good point on -- it's not necessarily a selfish
 8   goal, but my confirmation is up during this
 9   legislation, during this next legislature, and one more
10   reason, I would not want any entities to somehow --
11   that is opposed to bingo or is opposed to the lottery
12   to take some position contrary to any position that I
13   issued.
14                  CHAIRMAN CLOWE:  And I'm so glad you
15   brought that up and I thought that was yours to do and
16   not mine, but let me tell you for those of you that are
17   not familiar with this process.  Commissioner Olvera
18   was appointed by Governor Perry and he has been sworn
19   and is a serving commissioner because he was appointed
20   during the time the legislature was not in session.
21   Commissioner Olvera will continue to serve until the
22   legislature goes into session and then he must appear
23   before the Senate Nominating Committee and they must
24   recommend his nomination out to the senate and the
25   senate must vote on it and he must be confirmed.
0114
 1                  Commissioner Cox has been confirmed and
 2   I've been here so long, I think I was confirmed, but
 3   that is a serious thing to an appointee.  Commission
 4   Olvera has that in focus and he's right on target, so
 5   we have two confirmed Commissioners and one that is
 6   serving and yet to be confirmed, so it's good that you
 7   brought that up so the members of the industry
 8   understand that.
 9                  COMMISSIONER OLVERA:  And once the
10   legislative session is over, I think that will be the
11   template to then formulate goals because that will then
12   provide us a springboard as to what we can and cannot
13   do.
14                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  Thank you.
15                  COMMISSIONER COX:  There's one other
16   matter that we will certainly be working with, a few
17   months ago we extended for one year the term the
18   existence of the Bingo Advisory Committee, and we're
19   going to be looking very carefully at how we can best
20   deal with this informational kind of situation through
21   this committee and making whatever appropriate
22   revisions might need to be made to make this committee,
23   or some similar apparatus if that were to be the
24   Commission's choice, most effective in filling that
25   role.
0115
 1                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  Thank you.  Let's
 2   let Sandy catch up with us.  Okay.  Goals for the Bingo
 3   Division.
 4                  MR. ATKINS:  Well, I guess the division
 5   has two, and before I start, I think it's important
 6   that I take this opportunity, commissioners, to let you
 7   know that I have been involved with the Advisory
 8   Committee since it's inception back in 1995, and it's
 9   my opinion that this group of members has been the most
10   conscientious group of advisory committee members the
11   agency has ever had and, likewise, I think that this
12   has been pointed out and many of the advisory committee
13   members have commented on it, that you have definitely
14   been the most attentive Commission that we have ever
15   had as it relates, not just to the Bingo Advisory
16   Committee, but the entire bingo division itself.
17                  My goal would be --
18                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  Billy, I'm so sorry
19   to interrupt you.  I misstated where we are and what
20   we're doing, so I think I've missed -- your question
21   is:  What do you see the role of the commissioners to
22   be?
23                  MR. ATKINS:  No.  I'm getting to the
24   goal.  I just wanted to --
25                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  I had stated it
0116
 1   wrong.  I asked you to comment on your goals and I
 2   actually had skipped over a whole bunch of information,
 3   so you knew where you were supposed to be, but I didn't
 4   say it right.  Thank you.
 5                  MR. ATKINS:  And I may not see the goals
 6   that I have correctly, but the goals that I would have
 7   would be for their to be a complete understanding in
 8   terms of what both parties, the parties being the
 9   commissioners and the BAC, want from one another and
10   what their expectations are of one another.  Because,
11   as staff, we feel like sometimes we've kind of been
12   caught in the middle and the members of the Commission,
13   I think, have already, you know, mentioned that
14   sometimes they may feel like the Advisory Committee
15   isn't providing them with the information that they
16   want or need, and I think that the Advisory Committee
17   has already commented on the fact that sometimes they
18   have a frustration that the Commission isn't taking
19   action on their recommendations, and there's been a
20   number of examples of both, so I don't think I need to
21   go into that, but that is what I would like, one of the
22   things that I'd like to see come out of that is that
23   clear understanding and eliminate as much as we can
24   that frustration and take the staff out of this middle
25   position, and, again, not so much for us, but to
0117
 1   improve the processes for these two groups.
 2                  Now, from a purely selfish point of
 3   view, the staff would like to be able to receive from
 4   the Advisory Committee -- I talked earlier kind of
 5   about nuts-and- bolts information, and the best service
 6   that they can provide for us is that thoughtful,
 7   independent, objective information on the issues that
 8   may be before the Commission or the division.
 9                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  And this is what
10   you would like for the BAC.  Let me ask you to hold
11   that thought because I've confused things.  We're only
12   talking about what the commissioners' goals should be
13   for the next nine months.  I confused things and I
14   apologize.  Everybody is going to do the commissioners'
15   goal, what goals you hold for the commissioners.
16                  MR. ATKINS:  Okay.  Clarifying the
17   expectations of the Advisory Committee.
18                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  Thank you.  I
19   apologize.
20                  MR. ATKINS:  I think I might have
21   answered everything all at once.
22                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  Well, it's all
23   right.  I helped you do that.  Suzanne?
24                  MS. TAYLOR:  Being an informative
25   resource for the legislators.
0118
 1                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  That's your goal
 2   for the commissioners.  Kim?
 3                  MS. ROGERS:  I would like to say that
 4   we're very fortunate to have such a variety of
 5   commissioners, you know, to have the knowledge that we
 6   need.  Do as they are doing.  They are here; they're
 7   listening.  My goal -- or, what I think my goal for
 8   them would be to continue to be here to listen to us
 9   and to work with us side by side, not one above the
10   other, to make this industry better.
11                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  Thank you.
12                  MR. PAVLOVSKY:  What a great way to end
13   the year.  I think a goal for the next year would be to
14   have one more of these maybe at the end of next year,
15   something further than six months.
16                  MR. DOUGHERTY:  I'm not sure this is an
17   appropriate question, but it certainly caught my
18   interest when it was mentioned that what we may need is
19   a bingo commission, and that certainly sounds like a
20   good idea, but how in the world do you process such a
21   request?  Is that something that goes through the
22   legislature by law?  I think that's a big step forward.
23                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  And I'll put that
24   in what we call the parking lot.  It does come out of
25   the parking lot someday when someone picks it up and
0119
 1   takes initiative, but we have items that come up that
 2   don't fit right in the agenda but they're great
 3   thoughts, so I will put that in what we call the
 4   parking lot.
 5                  MR. DOUGHERTY:  Oh, boy, I didn't know
 6   we had a parking lot.  I guess there's not much more I
 7   can say on that, but it certainly would be a great step
 8   forward if they could create a commission on bingo and
 9   then maybe we could have some funds to do some of the
10   things that have been discussed in here today.  From
11   the public standpoint, I think it would be great.
12   That's about all I can say at this point.
13                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  Thank you.  Mario?
14                  MR. MANIO:  A commissioner has been
15   present in the BAC meeting in the last three or four
16   meetings and I wish that that will continue through the
17   next year and even further.  And the second thing is, I
18   agree with Pete's idea maybe to have another forum like
19   this sometime next year.
20                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  Thank you.  Larry?
21                  MR. WHITTINGTON:  I want to say to the
22   Commission that I really appreciate all the work y'all
23   are doing along with the BAC for the public and bingo,
24   but we got to figure out some kind of way -- and that's
25   going to be my goal as far as y'all -- to educate the
0120
 1   people.  I know you talk about advertising, there's no
 2   money, but I don't understand about some money that's
 3   being paid the state, like several billion dollars, why
 4   can't we use some of that at least for a public
 5   announcement?  I'm going to always say that because we
 6   really need to have something out there to educate
 7   these people.
 8                  Is there any way Billy, since he's over
 9   the Charitable Bingo, to educate the senators and the
10   House about bingo?  I mean, I heard Billy -- plenty of
11   people talk -- get up and talk about what bingo don't
12   do.  Do we have someone to stand up in front of the
13   House and the Senate and tell them what bingo is all
14   about and what bingo needs?
15                  COMMISSIONER COX:  Could I say
16   something?
17                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  Certainly.
18                  COMMISSIONER COX:  There's one thing
19   that I would point out that I think is being done very
20   effectively, is that Nelda and the Public Affairs
21   Department is taking both Billy and his staff and
22   Reagan and his staff to the legislature and holding a
23   meeting on behalf of anyone who will come about what's
24   going on in the industry and what are the issues.
25                  CHAIRMAN CLOWE:  Larry, I was at the
0121
 1   last briefing, which was last week, and I would like
 2   for Billy to give every member of the BAC a copy of his
 3   presentation.  It was there and everybody that came got
 4   it, and that is going on in a very proper way, but
 5   that's different, to a certain extent, from what I
 6   think you're asking.
 7                  MR. WHITTINGTON:  Well, not really, I
 8   just want them to be knowledgeable about what bingo is
 9   all about.
10                  CHAIRMAN CLOWE:  Well, then you'll like
11   what you'll see.
12                  MR. WHITTINGTON:  And that's what I'm
13   talking about naive.  I don't want anybody to be nieve
14   about bingo.
15                  CHAIRMAN CLOWE:  Every meeting that
16   Billy and Reagan and I have with every member, for
17   example, on the Sunset Committee, we met with each
18   member, and there are three of us that go, and Billy
19   always makes the first presentation and Reagan makes
20   the last presentation.
21                  MR. WHITTINGTON:  I'm proud of you,
22   Billy.
23                  CHAIRMAN CLOWE:  So that effort is
24   ongoing, and Billy will always make a report on what
25   the bingo activity is in that representative or that
0122
 1   senator's district, so I think that's happening more
 2   than maybe you're aware of.  And, Billy, spread that
 3   around.
 4                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  Thank you.
 5                  MR. MOORE:  In my recollection, I can't
 6   remember commissioners ever going on the record as far
 7   as the industry and the troubles we have, and I
 8   appreciate both of you doing that at our last meeting.
 9   That means a lot to all of us.  I think it's going to
10   go a long way in helping us in the future.  And I need
11   your cell phone numbers.
12                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  We'll put that in
13   the parking lot.
14                  Okay.  The public, slash, industry
15   commenting on what the commissioners' goals should be
16   for the next eight months, starting in January.
17                  MR. FENOGLIO:  I'll take a stab at it.
18   Steve Fenoglio.  Number one, one of the Sunset
19   recommendations was to increase the commissioner's
20   number from three to five, and we think that's an
21   important element to improve communication, because we
22   know it's awkward for us to communicate with you on a
23   one-on-one basis.  Not that we're trying to circumvent
24   anything about the Open Meetings Act, but we think that
25   was an -- it's been an identified issue in Sunset for
0123
 1   the last two rounds, and we would support that.  And
 2   there are some other Sunset recommendation that are
 3   probably appropriate, but I think that's probably too
 4   many in the way of nuts and bolts.
 5                  CHAIRMAN CLOWE:  Steve, I think the
 6   Commission voted to oppose that, if I remember
 7   correctly.
 8                  MR. FENOGLIO:  I thought y'all supported
 9   it.
10                  CHAIRMAN CLOWE:  We supported it and
11   then we changed our position.  I think we voted with
12   the new Commission that's in place today.  The
13   commissioners voted to recommend that the Commission
14   stay at three members.  We deliberated that and looked
15   at it very hard, and as cumbersome as it may seem to
16   have three commissioners, the Commission -- and I can't
17   speak for the other commissioners -- but as one
18   commissioner, you've got a lot of responsibility on a
19   commissioner and I didn't like the idea of two
20   commissioners being able to go off and talk with an
21   industry representative and, you know, talk on the
22   phone with each other, and that's why I voted to
23   recommend that it stay at three.  So, in all fairness,
24   I want to point that out to you, that that is a
25   position the Commission has taken and we have voted on
0124
 1   it.
 2                  COMMISSIONER COX:  I would add one thing
 3   to that.  I voted for it for that reason.  I also voted
 4   for it for the reason that we are very fortunate to
 5   have three highly-committed commissioners, and I've
 6   served on other boards that were larger that were very
 7   much deluded because they had people that didn't care,
 8   sometimes didn't even care enough to come to meetings,
 9   and so, remember, the larger it gets, the larger the
10   risk that you have people that don't care.
11                  MR. FENOGLIO:  And then the other thing
12   about the agency -- and Commissioner Olvera touched on
13   it -- is, there is a commissioner up for appointment
14   for confirmation and then the agency itself is up for
15   review, and as y'all know, it has been a level of
16   discussion about who should regulate bingo -- and I
17   think Jack had touched on it -- but, in any event, I
18   think the industry, I guess, as a group has said we
19   want an agency that's sensitive to the industry's
20   needs, and I think there has been a changing, an
21   evolving process within that.  If they weren't all hard
22   working, we'd end up without an agency that regulates
23   bingo and we might have shot ourselves in a part of the
24   anatomy that we didn't want to do.  I guess our
25   dilution is we need a viable and active regulator of
0125
 1   bingo.
 2                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  Other public
 3   comments on the role of the commissioners?  Anyone
 4   else?
 5                  Okay.  Then we'll move to the role of
 6   Bingo Division.
 7                  Billy, if you would bear with us and
 8   state what you see your role and your staff's role.
 9                  MS. JOSEPH:  Carol, it's goals.
10                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  Goals.  I'm so
11   sorry.  Thank you, Sandy.
12                  MR. ATKINS:  The first I had would be to
13   continue to facilitate, I guess, the interaction
14   between the Commission and the Advisory Committee, and
15   that incorporates all of the support functions for both
16   bodies.  And then, another thing -- another specific
17   thing that the staff has with a legislative session
18   coming up is timely responding to, again, appropriate
19   legislative requests.
20                  But I think something that's come up
21   just from this conversation today is providing more
22   information to the Advisory Committee on the activity
23   of the Bingo Division.
24                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  And I'll go to
25   Suzanne to comment on where she sees the goals for the
0126
 1   next eight months, starting in January, for the Bingo
 2   Division.
 3                  MS. TAYLOR:  I think the continuation of
 4   the work between the staff and the BAC.  We worked
 5   really well together this last year.  They've been very
 6   informative.  They've helped us with just tons and tons
 7   for information for our meetings.  They help us make
 8   educated decisions, whether it is for or against a rule
 9   they're proposing.  I think the continuation of the
10   interaction between the BAC and the staff.  And the
11   staff being a good resource for the legislators.
12                  MS. ROGERS:  Also, to continue with
13   helping and assisting with -- I'm speaking as far as
14   the charities -- in the licensing and the recordkeeping
15   and bookkeeping; they do a very good job of that.  And
16   to help -- and to continue moving forward with changes
17   that we might implement.
18                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  Thank you.
19                  MR. PAVLOVSKY:  And I agree and pass.
20                  MR. DOUGHERTY:  I don't have anymore
21   parking suggestions.  I reserve.
22                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  Thank you.
23                  MR. MANIO:  Just to expand on what Kim
24   has stated, I think that the staff can help the
25   charities a lot in, let's say, in the area of improving
0127
 1   revenue or increasing the efficiency of the operation.
 2   And to a certain extent, the staff is already doing
 3   this through the Bingo Bulletin and through our
 4   training program, operator's training on, you know, how
 5   to increase revenue, a little bit on marketing, that
 6   kind of thing.
 7                  MS. JOSEPH:  I'm not sure I got that.
 8   Summarize it.
 9                  MR. MANIO:  Help the charities in
10   improving revenue or improving bingo revenue and making
11   bingo operations more efficient.
12                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  Thank you.
13                  MR. WHITTINGTON:  The main thing is to
14   just keep working together like we always do.  We
15   almost always come up with a majority decision between
16   us, whether it's a rule or something we're trying to
17   adopt.  Just keep doing that, keep working together,
18   and I'm sure everything will be accomplished.
19                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  So keep working
20   together.
21                  MR. MOORE:  I just want to say that I've
22   been working on some subcommittees, and it's a nice
23   group of people to work with over there, Billy.  You've
24   got a good staff.  I hope that we just -- we look down
25   the road a little bit.  I mean, as the legislature
0128
 1   meets, we need to think about how we would implement
 2   things.  I know the staff is busy with other things,
 3   but time is of the essence, you know, and that's, of
 4   course, if legislation were to pass, I know that it
 5   takes time to put things together and we would be happy
 6   to help in any way we can.
 7                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  Commissioners, how
 8   do you see the role of the Bingo Division over the next
 9   eight months, starting in January?
10                  COMMISSIONER COX:  This is something
11   that we have considered carefully in our meetings and I
12   think we've approved a business plan for you, Billy.  I
13   remember a couple of items, one, was to have a meeting
14   like this, another I remember was to produce an annual
15   report.  And you might refresh us on some of the other
16   things we've already agreed on, but I think we, as a
17   board, have pretty well focused on that and come to our
18   conclusions in the past.
19                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  I'm hoping I can
20   ask him not to answer that at this time, but to put it
21   in a to-do list to be sure that that gets answered.  So
22   to continue an annual report and meetings of this
23   nature?
24                  COMMISSIONER COX:  Those were two of the
25   goals that I remember specifically.
0129
 1                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  Okay.  And you're
 2   going to continue those?
 3                  COMMISSIONER COX:  We've already voted
 4   to do that.
 5                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  Okay.  Thank you.
 6                  CHAIRMAN CLOWE:  I don't have anything
 7   to add.
 8                  COMMISSIONER OLVERA:  The document
 9   speaks for itself, I agree.
10                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  Okay.  Industry,
11   goals for Bingo Division.
12                  MR. FENOGLIO:  Steve Fenoglio.
13   Streamline regulation.
14                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  Anybody else
15   comment?  Okay.  Then the goals for the BAC.  We'll
16   start with Suzanne.
17                  MS. TAYLOR:  Okay.  I'd like to see the
18   continuation of the work group that allows for so much
19   in depth research and work on multiple areas that need
20   improvement and some new ideas to help Charitable Bingo
21   prosper.  I'd like to see some of the things the work
22   groups are currently working on come to an end.
23   Because, as Danny talked before, sometimes it seems
24   that we continue to work on these items over and over
25   without actually coming to a conclusion, so I'd like to
0130
 1   actually conclude some of these items.  I'd like the
 2   BAC to adopt a new work plan for next year.  Some of
 3   the items that are on there now maybe don't need to be
 4   on there and maybe the work plan needs to be expanded
 5   with the input from the group and, of course, the bingo
 6   staff.
 7                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  Thank you.  Kim?
 8                  MS. ROGERS:  I also think we need to
 9   continue with the work groups.  I've see a lot get done
10   when you have individuals go out and do separate
11   things.  We need to be prepared to help with gathering
12   information.  All these changes that we all stand up
13   and say we want so much, we need to be able to really
14   give hard information so we can have a place to go to.
15   We need to find out how we need to do that and get it
16   done.  It is a slow process, but we need to move
17   forward with that.
18                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  Thank you.
19                  MR. PAVLOVSKY:  I don't have anything to
20   add.
21                  MR. DOUGHERTY:  Pass.
22                  MR. MANIO:  I keep coming back to the
23   point brought up by Steve Bresnen, because, to me,
24   that's a very exciting idea.  Rather than the members
25   of the BAC to wait for items to be presented to them
0131
 1   for deliberations, wouldn't it be exciting to say, hey
 2   Billy, don't you think it's time to revisit these items
 3   for the following reasons?  That's just an example.
 4   Like, I could come to Billy and say, Billy, maybe it's
 5   time to go over this item or this rule for the
 6   following reasons.  That would be exciting and that
 7   would tie up with the work plan that Suzanne just
 8   mentioned.
 9                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  So to bring issues
10   and ideas -- I'm trying to help Sandy.
11                  MR. MANIO:  Well, what I'm really saying
12   is, the BAC members can take initiative and bring up
13   items for consideration.
14                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  Good.  Thank you.
15                  MR. WHITTINGTON:  Basically to keep up
16   on the new ideas, what's happening in bingo, and
17   present it to Billy and the staff on rules and
18   regulations, especially with the upcoming legislation
19   that's coming up.  If we see something going on,
20   happening, getting close to happening towards bingo, we
21   should be abreast to it and kind of identify that issue
22   before it happens and talk about it so we can be
23   prepared if it does happen.
24                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  Okay.  Danny?
25                  MR. MOORE:  I think we need to focus
0132
 1   on -- we got a couple of members going out here in
 2   another month, and we really need to focus on getting
 3   some more people on here and get them educated pretty
 4   quick.  I think that should be our number-one goal
 5   right now as a group.  And just to continue to work
 6   with the staff as best we can.  And, obviously, we need
 7   to monitor the legislative session.
 8                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  Thank you.
 9   Commissioners, the goals for the BAC?
10                  CHAIRMAN CLOWE:  I think the focus
11   coming into view here needs to be continued and I think
12   everything has been mentioned that I can input.
13                  COMMISSIONER OLVERA:  I have nothing to
14   add.  I agree.
15                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  Thank you.
16   Industry's goals for the BAC and the public's?
17                  MS. HERBST:  Ann Herbst.  I'm a
18   charity -- I'm not a charity, but a representative.
19   I'd like some feedback from the BAC just to know what's
20   going on, just to keep us in the loop so that we know
21   more.  And I don't know how to do that and I don't know
22   what the regulations are, but a newsletter or
23   something.
24                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  A vehicle of some
25   sort?
0133
 1                  MS. HERBST:  So that we get some
 2   feedback.
 3                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  Okay.  Thank you.
 4                  MR. BRESNEN:  I'm Steve Bresnen on
 5   behalf of the Bingo Interest Group.  I would like to
 6   see the BAC establish some kind of a simple uniform
 7   report that can go to y'all and that can be available
 8   for members of the legislature that would give an
 9   accurate picture of bingo.  I think that's something in
10   the format that can be discussed and developed over the
11   next six or eight months.  And, also, I'd like to see
12   them recommend some ways that the regulatory burden
13   could be relaxed.
14                  Working together, we all came up with
15   the unit accounting concept last time around, and if
16   the IRS ever gives us a ruling, I think that will
17   really take off, but there are bound to be other good
18   ideas like that that maybe could be run with in the
19   legislature, but if we can get the BAC thinking in a
20   way, then we'll take care of the legislator part.
21                  COMMISSIONER OLVERA:  Carol, I guess I
22   have a question.  How does Ms. Herbst's comments,
23   perhaps, coincide with some of the previous comments
24   that the BAC cannot, quote, educate their constituents?
25                  MS. HERBST:  I don't know.  That's why
0134
 1   I'm a little confused.
 2                  COMMISSIONER OLVERA:  And I'm asking the
 3   BAC that.  I don't have the answer.
 4                  MS. TAYLOR:  Well, one way you can find
 5   out what goes on at the BAC meetings is to read the
 6   minutes, which are posted on line, and it's word for
 7   word what goes on in all of our meetings.
 8                  MS. HERBST:  I see.  Okay.
 9                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  Yes, sir.
10                  MR. BRESNEN:  One other idea.  I think
11   the BAC -- everybody on the BAC has interacted with
12   charitable organizations and they know what charities
13   are doing with the money that they get from bingo, and
14   I think they need to have a format for capturing that
15   in a simple manner, highlighting it for the
16   commissioners, and I think there are members of the
17   groups out here that would take that and use that
18   information to better educate both the public and the
19   legislature with it, so some way of getting people
20   informed about what charities do with this money so
21   it's not just bingo and money, so they understand that
22   the Marine Corps League is doing things for people and
23   abused spouses are being sheltered and those kinds of
24   things.
25                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  Other public
0135
 1   comments concerning the BAC's role?  Yes, sir.
 2                  MR. HEINLEIN:  David Heinlein.  I would
 3   certainly recommend that the BAC continue.  If that was
 4   ever in doubt that you were not going to continue it, I
 5   would certainly want, from an industry standpoint, for
 6   the BAC to continue.  It's been very, very useful.
 7   It's been very helpful.  It given us the opportunity
 8   the discuss openly so many of these difficulties that
 9   we have in our particular industry, and with our
10   commissioners weighing in on it over the last few
11   years, it has really been a resourceful tool to look at
12   the challenges this industry has in front of it.
13                  And I would also ask if it would be
14   possible to do something that would answer the question
15   that we've come up here with:  We now get the
16   transcripts of the BAC meetings and they're very
17   lengthy, and I prefer what Suzanne just did, a very
18   simple outline of what was discussed without it being
19   word for word.  It's a little easier tool then to be
20   used by the industry.  So, if that would be possible, I
21   would see that as a goal at the next BAC meeting to
22   keep some minutes of a nature that would be more of an
23   outline form of minutes rather a detailed word-for-word
24   of he said, she said.
25                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  Any other public
0136
 1   comments?
 2                  MS. THOMPSON:  My name is Jane Thompson
 3   I think in the interest of keeping the legislators
 4   informed of what Charity Bingo is all about, what if
 5   you -- the BAC put on their agenda for each meeting to
 6   make it a point to have a representative from one of
 7   the charities come and tell the benefits from bingo so
 8   that it's in writing, it would be well known, and
 9   hopefully passed on to the legislature?
10                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  Other comments?
11                  Okay.  Well, what we are going to do
12   after we break --
13                  MR. ATKINS:  Carol?
14                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  Yes, Billy.  I'm
15   sorry.
16                  MR. ATKINS:  One goal we would have for
17   the BAC is to stay focused on what it is the Commission
18   needs from them.  For example, in going around today,
19   you know, a number of the people talked about how great
20   it would be bringing information to me, and I know that
21   a lot of that stems from, you know, it's just been a
22   closer working relationship, but help them to remember
23   that they're the final end user, and, you know, the
24   fact that the -- you know, the fact may be that the end
25   product may be the BAC telling them we support
0137
 1   progressive bingo.  That may be it; that may be as far
 2   as it goes.  And then the other thing would be to
 3   continue to provide what I've been referring to as the
 4   nuts-and-bolts information on actual bingo operations.
 5                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  Have I left anyone
 6   out?
 7                  CHAIRMAN CLOWE:  I want to come back a
 8   second time.  Is that permitted?
 9                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  Absolutely.
10                  CHAIRMAN CLOWE:  I passed on the first
11   one, but Billy's comment brought it to mind.  I think
12   Suzanne is actually the gatekeeper for the BAC to get
13   to agenda items.  I think, as the Chair, Suzanne sets
14   the agenda and she does that with Billy, because there
15   is guidance there as to what is a proper agenda item
16   and what is not, but that, Suzanne, I think is your
17   role.  And strong leadership will make for a better
18   group.
19                  And I think that I would say that,
20   Suzanne, you need to continue to require that the
21   members come to the meetings, that they participate,
22   they do their homework, they fulfill their assignments,
23   and move right along.  That is key.  That's your role
24   as the Chair of the BAC.  Billy can be helpful and give
25   you guidance, but you set the agenda for the BAC
0138
 1   meetings just like I set the agenda for the Commission
 2   meetings.  I'm respectful of the commissioners' desires
 3   when they want something on the agenda.  It's not an
 4   autocratic process, but you are responsible, just as I
 5   am responsible, that the productivity of the group
 6   stays at a high level, and that's a lot of
 7   responsibility.  I just wanted to mention that.
 8                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  Okay.  So where we
 9   are now is to make a decision about what we went to do,
10   commissioners.
11                  MR. ATKINS:  The goals of the industry.
12                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  We had originally
13   talked about breaking for lunch and coming back at --
14   at 12:30, we talked about breaking for lunch.  We can
15   do the goals of the industry first, but if we wait, it
16   will leave about one hour of work for this part of the
17   agenda after lunch plus I believe the BAC has one item
18   on their agenda that they will be taking up after we're
19   through with this format.  Is that correct?
20                  Okay.  So, the question is, do we break
21   for lunch now and come back and spend between an hour
22   and an hour and a half to finish or do we want to spend
23   a little more time now, go to lunch later, and come
24   back for a shorter amount of time after lunch?  And I'm
25   completely open to what you would like to do.
0139
 1                  COMMISSIONER OLVERA:  Commissioners,
 2   Carol, I do need to take my leave now regardless, but
 3   I'll live the agenda at your discretion
 4                  CHAIRMAN CLOWE:  I think the
 5   commissioners would like to go ahead and break now
 6   since Commissioner Olvera is leaving.  It's a good time
 7   to do that if the members of the BAC are in agreement.
 8                  MS. TAYLOR:  I'm in agreement in hopes
 9   that the public that's here will come back after lunch,
10   because we have a tendency to lose just about everybody
11   in the room every time we break for lunch.
12                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  How many people
13   plan to come back after lunch?
14                  CHAIRMAN CLOWE:  We're going to now
15   adjourn for lunch, or recess for lunch, so far as the
16   Texas Lottery Commission meeting.  The time is 12:33.
17   We're going to reconvene here at 1:30 p.m.
18                  Madam Chair.
19                  MS. TAYLOR:  The BAC will now recess for
20   lunch.  We'll be back 1:30.
21                      (Break for lunch)
22                  CHAIRMAN CLOWE:  It's 1:30 p.m. and we
23   will reconvene the meeting of the Texas Lottery
24   Commission.
25                  MS. TAYLOR:  It is 1:30 p.m. and we will
0140
 1   reconvene the meeting of the Bingo Advisory Committee
 2                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  Okay.  So, correct
 3   me if I'm wrong, but we are talking about industry and
 4   the public's goals.  Correct?
 5                  CHAIRMAN CLOWE:  Yeah.
 6                  MS. TAYLOR:  If I could say one thing
 7   before you speak, David.  I sure appreciate all of the
 8   public members that came back from lunch this time.  We
 9   truly love seeing your faces here.
10                  MR. HEINLEIN:  Well, the BAC has a
11   chairman; the Commission has it's chairman; the
12   industry doesn't have one, so we'll just have to -- and
13   those of us that would like to say something about what
14   we think the industry's goals should be, I guess, is
15   probably how we'll order our talk.
16                  I would certainly like to see our
17   industry continue what we have begun very recently,
18   that we've given you a copy of, and that's The Texas
19   Charity Advocates' plan to gather as much information
20   from the charitable organizations in the state to be
21   able to tell our own story to the legislature, which
22   chairman Clowe has told us we've got to do; we've got
23   to do that.  So, I would just challenge our industry to
24   gather together and send a unified voice of what do we
25   do with our Charitable Bingo money?  What can we do to
0141
 1   increase the amount of it?
 2                  And to implement what I'm going to say
 3   to you, I'd like to ask for Robert Duncan to tell us
 4   what his charity has been able to accomplish because of
 5   what we're doing here, to give credibility to what I
 6   want to say.  As an industry, being able to gather
 7   together over these next few months to go to the
 8   legislature will be one group sending a unified voice
 9   of things that would help bingo.  And one of those
10   things that would help bingo is to have new products.
11   Billy and his staff were able to give us a new product,
12   fantastic.  Chairman Clowe was a big part of being able
13   to get that done for our industry, and we thank you for
14   that and we'd like to show you some of the results.
15                  MR. DUNCAN:  I'm Robert Gaylan Duncan,
16   Victoria, Texas.  Mr. Chairman, Mr. Cox, I appreciate
17   your position because I, too, had the privilege to
18   serve on the Texas Funeral Commission for six years and
19   that's an arduous task, but I understand that you-all
20   are doing a fantastic job.
21                  You know, it's my privilege to represent
22   the five charities at Palace Bingo in Victoria.  We're
23   very fortunate that we have a good relationship with
24   our Senator Ken Armbrister, and I'm sure you're
25   familiar with Senator Armbrister.  He's a strong
0142
 1   individual and he is a supporter of bingo, and we
 2   appreciate that very much.  We also have a good
 3   relationship with Geanie Morrison, our representative.
 4   And this is what each person must do to make this thing
 5   work.  These individuals are extremely familiar with
 6   what charities do in our community, and I think we owe
 7   a great deal to the individuals that belong to the
 8   charities in our Palace bingo.
 9                  You know, David alluded to the fact that
10   we have done quite well recently in Victoria due to one
11   thing, and that was your making it possible for the
12   event tabs to come into being.  Palace Bingo was
13   started back in 1997 and it struggled for many years,
14   and it went from like $17,000 it was able to give to
15   charities to this past year -- or, this year, $158,000.
16   Now, every dime of this money goes back into the
17   community.  And in addition to that, they also -- we're
18   very pleased every quarter to write a $60,000-plus
19   check to the state, and I'm sure it goes into the
20   general fund.  But, nevertheless, this is all possible
21   due to the event tabs, so we look forward to your
22   giving us the tools to work with to improve our
23   contributions to the various charities.
24                  You know, I'm very pleased with the
25   booklet that's been put out and, of course, I'm proud
0143
 1   to be a part of the Sunrise Rotary Club because we have
 2   given over $18,000 to various charities, to the needy
 3   in your communities, and I think that's what we're
 4   supposed to do and I think that's what we are doing.  I
 5   know that's what we're doing.
 6                  In addition to that, we also have given
 7   close to $16,000 this year to a special fund that has a
 8   great deal of meaning to me.  I lost my grandson about
 9   three years ago and we established a scholarship fund
10   in his memory.  We're reaching individuals that would
11   not have an opportunity to go to college or to enter
12   the performing arts, so we're doing many things with
13   these funds that come from our Charitable Bingo.
14                  Fortunately, we have the Kiwanis Club in
15   our group.  Our Kiwanis Club has given another $25,000
16   this year to needy individuals in our community.  You
17   heard from Ann Herbst, our representative from the Bach
18   Festival.  We have an outstanding Bach festival in our
19   community.  Were it not for bingo, that would not
20   happen, so we're grateful to you for that.
21                  And, you know, commissioners, as you can
22   see, Charitable Bingo throughout our state can and will
23   continue to thrive as long as you gentlemen think in a
24   positive vein, and that is so important.  And, of
25   course, also, we owe a great deal to those individuals
0144
 1   that work in bingo, those that give of their time,
 2   those paid individuals that really know how to work,
 3   and they put forth every effort because they know that
 4   every dollar that they're making goes into a good fund
 5   that will help those that are less fortunate than
 6   themselves.  So, we appreciate the fact that you-all
 7   are doing an outstanding job as commissioners of the
 8   Lottery Commission and the Charitable Bingo portion of
 9   it especially.  Thank you very much.
10                  MR. HEINLEIN:  What we need to do as our
11   goals of the industry is to continue finding ways to do
12   things like these events tabs, because they really will
13   produce the kind of results that we've had.  Actually,
14   in the last three years, they have tripled donations as
15   a result of that product.  If we'll continue to do
16   those kinds of things legislatively and be unified as
17   an industry, I think we can accomplish those kinds of
18   goals and get results.
19                  I know that I testified to the House
20   Committee that we could double contributions, and I
21   think Billy was talking about like $29 million, I said
22   we can go double that, and everybody says, no, there's
23   no way; that's impossible.  That's why I wanted this
24   man to testify, because he has the fact that his
25   charities are doing that; they have actually tripled,
0145
 1   not doubled, in just a very short period of time.
 2   That, I think should be our primary goal of the
 3   industry, is to be together in that voice to seek new
 4   products from the legislature that can be used, and
 5   with Billy and the staff's help in finding these kinds
 6   of things which you've been researching, we'll know the
 7   right thing to go to the legislature about and get
 8   their help, but we must, first of all, be unified as a
 9   group to tell our Charitable Bingo story.  Thank you
10                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  Thank you.  Other
11   comments from the public or the industry on your goals?
12                  MR. BRESNEN:  I'm Steve Bresnen on
13   behalf of the Bingo Interest Group.  We have several
14   clear and succinct goals.  One is to help pass the
15   reforms that are listed in the House Licensing and
16   Administrative Procedures Committee's Report.  We
17   worked with the staff on that.  Billy, I saw a lot of
18   things that -- clean-up kind of things that you guys
19   want done in there.  And there's some more significant
20   accounting forms to be done in Bingo, and that's one of
21   the things that we want to get done in the next six
22   months.
23                  Another thing that we want to do as a
24   coalition to revive Charitable Bingo is to pass an
25   authorization to be able to play instant bingo
0146
 1   electronically in this state.  We have ten paid
 2   lobbyists who are being provided by those in the
 3   industry who stand to profit and are supported by the
 4   charities that are in the halls where bingo is
 5   conducted.  Those charities have produced on the order
 6   of about 1200 signatures on petitions of people
 7   involved with the charities that will be disseminated
 8   to the legislature.  The coalition members number
 9   around 50 now between lessors, manufacturers, and
10   distributors.  And the interesting thing is, is the
11   number of manufacturers that are involved in Texas are
12   not even involved in bingo now.  They want to come into
13   Texas and supply products and compete here, and they're
14   just looking for the environment to do it.
15                  Part of that goal is to work with Billy
16   and his staff to make sure that they have the resources
17   both in the statute and on the ground to be able to
18   implement those things in an efficient manner and to
19   keep track of these things and monitor from a distance,
20   and I think we worked successfully during the special
21   session to flush out some of that and we've got more
22   work to be done.
23                  And, thirdly, I want to come to you and
24   offer suggestions about how regulation might be
25   performed in a fashion that's less costly to the
0147
 1   charities and more efficient for the agency.  And that
 2   would be our goals for the next six months.
 3                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  Thank you.  Other
 4   comments from the public or industry on goals you have?
 5                  Commissioners, I turn to you and ask you
 6   the question, what goals you would see for the industry
 7   or the public in Charitable Bingo.
 8                  CHAIRMAN CLOWE:  I think, in summary, to
 9   focus on the proper application of the remedies that
10   have been identified and applying their efforts to the
11   correct source of action, and I think we are getting
12   that in focus.  There is energy in the industry,
13   clearly, and in order not to dissipate that energy, it
14   needs to be focused on where the best results can be
15   created.
16                  I like the comments about working with
17   the staff of the Charitable Bingo Division so that they
18   can give comments, suggestions, guidance on more
19   efficient regulation.  I like that input from the
20   public and from the industry.  I think that's
21   beneficial.
22                  I would say a continued involvement
23   through this legislative session and attendance at the
24   BAC meetings so that they can stay informed, the public
25   and the industry, and the BAC can have the benefit of
0148
 1   those comments and their involvement.  And I think
 2   we're talking about nine months' goals, aren't we,
 3   Carol?
 4                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  Yes.
 5                  CHAIRMAN CLOWE:  Okay.  Thank you.
 6                  COMMISSIONER COX:  New blood in an
 7   organization is always good, and when Kimberly Rogers
 8   came on the BAC and I interviewed her as the selection
 9   process was being conducted, and she talked about how
10   her hall emphasizes the activities of the charity, and
11   I hadn't really focused on what is really important
12   about bingo.  Even though I had been looking at the
13   trees, I really hadn't seen the forest.  I think
14   Kimberly put that into sharp focus for me, and I think
15   what you're doing in Victoria and what the Texas
16   Charity Advocates are doing are the most important
17   things that the public can be doing, along with working
18   directly with your local legislators and helping them
19   understand the importance of the beneficiaries of
20   bingo.  So I think the key is the charities and the
21   focus is both with the public and with the legislators.
22                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  Thank you.  Billy
23   your goals for the industry and the public.
24                  MR. ATKINS:  Again -- and I think Steve
25   Bresnen alluded to this, I think particularly with the
0149
 1   legislative session coming up, there's a great deal of
 2   importance for the opening up and sharing of
 3   information up front on both sides so that everyone is
 4   informed and able to, if asked, respond to anything
 5   that comes up.  I think everyone will agree that
 6   everything we can do to make sure that we don't have a
 7   situation that -- to be where we're operating where
 8   they are no surprises.  And everybody knows that that
 9   session happens, things happen so fast that's not
10   always possible, but I think if we can go into it with
11   our intent of being as open and timely as we can.
12                  And, also, I think someone else
13   earlier -- it might have been Mr. Garcia -- mentioned
14   the expertise that the industry brings, the continued
15   sharing of that as well as experience in other
16   jurisdictions is something that the staff has always
17   found to be very beneficial.
18                  And then, finally, I would go back again
19   to the concept that the public represents the players.
20   I think it would be great if there was a way to get
21   them more involved in the process and sharing --
22                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  The players?
23                  MR. ATKINS:  The players -- in sharing
24   their experience and their desires with the industry
25   with the BAC, with the Commission, and the staff.
0150
 1                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  Thank you.  Now for
 2   the BAC to share what they see the goals to be for the
 3   industry and the public over the next nine months.
 4                  MS. TAYLOR:  I think where industry has
 5   the greatest responsibility and the best benefit to
 6   bingo is to continue the groups that are working with
 7   the legislators, to keep working with the How to Help
 8   Charitable Bingo, and the different coalitions that are
 9   in place right now are so important to this industry if
10   we're going to go anywhere.  The commissioners can't go
11   and advocate on the part of the Lottery Commission; the
12   BAC can't go as a group to advocate on the part of the
13   BAC, but you can go and advocate on the part of all the
14   charities in this state to let all those legislators
15   know one by one how important bingo is to this state
16   and to the charities in the state.
17                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  Thank you.
18                  MS. ROGERS:  My goal for the public
19   would be to stand up and be heard, to get out there
20   and, not only contact us and let us know your problems,
21   but also bring some solutions to them.  You know, don't
22   just come to us and say, this is what we need, come
23   with solutions, because they're out there also.  But
24   get out there and contact your legislators and talk to
25   other people who play bingo and get as involved as they
0151
 1   can.
 2                  MR. PAVLOVSKY:  Earlier I made a comment
 3   that the industry was suppliers of products to the
 4   bingo world and also suppliers of information.  Most of
 5   us belong to a volunteer organization, whatever it
 6   might be.  All the Vet groups, Lions clubs, there is a
 7   couple hundred listed in this book, most of us belong
 8   to one or more of those organizations.  There is
 9   anywhere from 50 to 300 to 400 people in each one of
10   those organizations.  That's the people that your
11   legislators are going to listen to.
12                  It's good to have the suppliers and the
13   lobbyists lean on the legislators, but they vote and
14   your members vote.  That's the people that your
15   legislators are going to listen to.  Get them out
16   there.  If you've got 300 people in your organization,
17   double that at least.  Come up with some form letters,
18   you know, ask them to send that to their legislator or
19   a suggestion on a form letter, whatever it might be.
20   But you have got to get that word out to those
21   volunteer organizations, to the members of those
22   organizations.  Thank you.
23                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  Thank you.
24                  MR. DOUGHERTY:  Well, I certainly agree
25   with what Pete said.  And I was particularly heartened
0152
 1   by what Robert reported on, that there are some bingo
 2   out there that are really growing and profiting from
 3   bingo.  I don't know that all of them have, but it's
 4   good to hear those sort of reports, and we need that
 5   input to help inspire us to do a better job.
 6                  MR. MANIO:  I share Pete's opinion and I
 7   have nothing to add.
 8                  MR. WHITTINGTON:  I share everyone's
 9   opinion.
10                  MR. MOORE:  I'll pass.
11                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  Okay.  So we're
12   back to -- was that everybody?  Everybody got to share
13   what the goals should be for industry and the public?
14                  Okay.  So we're kind of back to what we
15   did earlier, where each stakeholder group takes a look
16   at the goals that were put up on the list and takes
17   note of those that they disagree with especially or
18   that they have a concern about so that we can openly
19   discuss those.  So we'll take about ten minutes where
20   we will be --
21                  CHAIRMAN CLOWE:  We'll be off the
22   record.
23                  (A short break was taken.)
24                  CHAIRMAN CLOWE:  All right.  We're back
25   on the record.
0153
 1                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  So, we will start
 2   with the commissioners.  Is there anything that you
 3   were concerned with or had a disagreement about goals
 4   that were brainstormed for you?
 5                  MS. TAYLOR:  I'm told that we need to
 6   say that the BAC is also back on the record.
 7                  COMMISSIONER COX:  There was a couple of
 8   things, one was the size of the Commission, and I think
 9   we've already stated that we as a Commission voted to
10   oppose the increase in size of the Commission from
11   three to give members, and that's stated over there
12   that we disagreed with that.
13                  Unfortunately, I don't think we're going
14   to be able to find some money to advertise, but I have
15   some ideas that maybe y'all can build on.  I learned a
16   lot today.  One of the things I've learned today is
17   that there are some publications about and for the
18   bingo industry, and so there's a medium out there that
19   is available for communications among your members.
20                  One thing that I would do if I had a way
21   to communicate -- if I were in your position and had a
22   way to communicate is, I would see if those media would
23   carry stories like the Victoria story that we heard
24   today and help the charities get focused on the
25   importance of their role in making things better.  We
0154
 1   can do only so much to make things better; the Bingo
 2   Advisory Committee can only do so much to make things
 3   better; and, as was pointed out, the lobbyists can only
 4   do so much to make things better, but the people of
 5   Texas who work with those charities can do a lot to
 6   make things better, and I hope that they will find the
 7   voices to do those things.
 8                  There was also a recommendation that we
 9   have another joint meeting like this, and to that I
10   would say that I have very favorable prospects for what
11   has been produced here today, and I think that, after a
12   period of time, if we look at the actual results and
13   find that they bear out the prospects that I hold for
14   what's happened here today, then, yes, I think another
15   meeting would be great.
16                  CHAIRMAN CLOWE:  I agree with what
17   Commissioner Cox has said, certainly about the number
18   of commissioners and on the funding of advertisements.
19                  A charitable interest, the Marine
20   operation -- I don't know what their correct name is --
21   has left some material on the front desk up here at the
22   entrance to this room, and they got some very nice
23   media coverage on their charity work to fly families to
24   the northeast to visit Marines who have been injured in
25   battle, and it clearly showed that the healing rate
0155
 1   increases expeditiously when the family members are
 2   there and the media apparently thought that was
 3   worthwhile and published that.  That's the kind of
 4   thing I think Commissioner Cox is referring to.  It's
 5   very beneficial and it's real.  Go by and look at those
 6   articles and those pictures on the front table.
 7                  Yes, I think that we want to see some
 8   results.  That's one of the things we're going to talk
 9   about before this meeting is concluded, but an annual
10   state-of-the-industry meeting of this type and kind is
11   something that I hope the Commission will consider as
12   time passes.  I can assure you that Commissioner Cox, I
13   think, and I know my interest in continuing to attend
14   the BAC meetings, but I want to tell you, by way of
15   pledging our involvement that must be met by your
16   involvement, and that encompasses everybody.  As I said
17   before, no one individual or group is going to be able
18   to make progress in this industry.  It's going to take
19   everybody working together, so it's a
20   let's-do-this-together kind of pledge.  The
21   commissioners, I can assure you, will do their part.
22                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  Thank you.  Billy,
23   would you like to share your thoughts on your goals?
24                  MR. ATKINS:  Sure.  Again, they're
25   weren't any that we disagreed with and there were just
0156
 1   some that, again, we'd like a little clarification on.
 2   For example, when we were talking about the timely
 3   response to legislative requests, I think we, again,
 4   included, you know, every popular caveat as
 5   appropriate.
 6                  On the, thinking ahead about
 7   implementation of new laws, and then there's something
 8   else there, that's kind of a mode that we're
 9   continuously in.  Again, it's not the thinking about it
10   that hinders us as much as the resources to do it.  And
11   that kind of holds true on the streamlining of
12   regulations.  Again, we're all for that as appropriate
13   and, you know, we also think that if we looked at a
14   situation where money were no object, that we could,
15   you know, streamline a lot of stuff.  And I've even
16   talked with some folks about how a lot of our
17   activities can possibly even be done online realtime.
18                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  Thank you.
19   Suzanne?
20                  MS. TAYLOR:  Overwhelmingly, I agree
21   with most of the goals for the BAC.  There are some I
22   have concerns about.  Quickly fill the BAC vacant spots
23   is something that we would love to be able to do;
24   however, we need help from the public to do that.  We
25   can't fill a spot if we don't have any applications for
0157
 1   the spot, so until there's some applications for us to
 2   consider, then we can extend our recommendations over
 3   to the commissioners.  It's not something that we can
 4   do.  We can recommend to the commissioners who, in
 5   turn, fill those spots.
 6                  The other one, I love the concept, but
 7   I'm not sure if we're able to do that, is to prepare a
 8   streamline set of minutes.  I think before that can go
 9   out, it would have to be something that was approved by
10   the BAC, which, once again, would put it many months
11   behind the actual event, and I think that's just
12   something we would have to talk with legal about.  If
13   it's something that they don't have a problem doing, I
14   don't see a problem with doing that either, because I
15   know Kim would love to take minutes for us and provide
16   a streamline set.  She already volunteered, I'm sure.
17   So, as long as that is something that can be done, but
18   as I'm seeing it, before you get that set of minutes
19   approved, it's going to be out online far before you
20   get that, because it's going to be three months down
21   the road.  If you're trying to stay current with what
22   the BAC is doing, three months down the road is pretty
23   late to try and get current.  Because I don't think we
24   can send those out until they've been approved by the
25   entire committee.
0158
 1                  Besides that, the rest of the goals I
 2   think are good goals.  I think they're goals that
 3   there's not a problem with.
 4                  COMMISSIONER COX:  Suzanne, if I could
 5   give one thought, and I don't know how you'd like to do
 6   this, but you make a report to the Lottery Commission
 7   shortly after your meetings, maybe you could make that
 8   report available to them?
 9                  MS. TAYLOR:  You know, I wondered about
10   that when they first started talking about it; I just
11   didn't know if it's something that, before I talk to
12   Kim or whoever, if that's something that is available
13   to do, because the BAC still hasn't -- they're
14   receiving reports from me to you in your notebooks, but
15   I don't know if that's something that the entire
16   committee says, yeah, that's my interpretation of the
17   meeting and it may not necessarily be the entire
18   committee's interpretation of what went on at the
19   meeting.
20                  MS. ROGERS:  Well, I would assist with
21   that, just so we have that on record.
22                  Pretty much I'm in favor of everything
23   that's listed up there.  I think our work groups are
24   really helpful, as I said before.  And one other thing
25   was, develop a new work plan.  I think that's a great
0159
 1   idea.  I hope that, if we do that and bring it forward,
 2   that we can move forward on those items in a timely
 3   process and it doesn't take a real long time to, you
 4   know, finish something because of the paperwork.
 5                  MR. PAVLOVSKY:  I agree with Suzanne
 6   about filling the vacancies.  As a matter fact, Mario
 7   and I have some applications if anybody is interested.
 8                  This is our last meeting, isn't it
 9   Billy?
10                  MR. ATKINS:  Well, you serve until your
11   replacement is appointed.
12                  MR. DOUGHERTY:  I have probably more
13   questions than I have comments, but I'm kind of going
14   down the list.  I didn't know there was anything wrong
15   with our work plan.  Maybe you could advise me.  I
16   thought we had a pretty good one, but we can certainly
17   look at it again and improve it.
18                  How do we reduce regulatory burden?  I'm
19   not clear as to how we can reduce that burden.  I'm
20   certainly welcome for any ideas on how to do that, and
21   there's a certain amount of regulatory things that have
22   to be done and I'm sure the Texas Lottery Commission is
23   well informed on those.
24                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  I would ask the
25   question:  Do we want to answer the question so that
0160
 1   the BAC has clarity on the goal that was put up?  Is
 2   that all right?
 3                  CHAIRMAN CLOWE:  I think first you need
 4   to get regulatory burden identified.
 5                  MR. DOUGHERTY:  That was my question,
 6   pretty much.
 7                  CHAIRMAN CLOWE:  Yeah.  I think the
 8   person that made that suggestion should help you
 9   understand what they were talking about before that can
10   be addressed, it seems to me.
11                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  At a later date,
12   you mean.
13                  MR. DOUGHERTY:  It probably ought to be
14   at our next BAC meeting.
15                  MR. BRESNEN:  Steve Bresnen on behalf of
16   the Bingo Interest Group.  Jack, I think it needs to be
17   a process.  I think we need to go through and look at
18   the rules, look at the statute, look for those things
19   that may be unnecessary.  I know Billy has identified
20   some of those that the House Licensing Committee has
21   recommended be repealed, because some of them are just
22   executed things that are no good anymore and some of
23   them really are not serving much of a purpose.  There
24   may be some other things that can be done more
25   efficiently, so I think it needs to be short of a
0161
 1   systematic working through, and I'd be happy to
 2   participate in that at the appropriate time.  You
 3   probably need some kind of a work group to start that
 4   process at the appropriate time.
 5                  MR. DOUGHERTY:  I appreciate your
 6   comments.  That's what I was looking for.
 7                  Then my question:  How do we choose
 8   which charities are going to attend our BAC meetings?
 9   There's about 1400 or 1500 in my book, how do we get
10   the word to them to attend?  Locally, we would have no
11   problem, but statewide, I don't know.  That's something
12   else I guess we need to discuss.  Do we send out sort
13   of group invitations to certain areas?  You know, the
14   state is divided up into about five different
15   districts, and that would be one way.  So, I'm just
16   putting the question out there.
17                  MS. TAYLOR:  I would suggest that that
18   could be something that the staff puts in the Bingo
19   Bulletin requesting people that would be interested to
20   let them know, and then that's something that,
21   hopefully, we would have so many people wanting to come
22   to tell us of their good works that the staff would
23   have to, you know, put them into the order in which
24   they said they would like to come and talk to us.
25                  MR. DOUGHERTY:  Very good.
0162
 1                  And, lastly, the testimony I brought up
 2   about creating a bingo commission, that parking lot
 3   thing.  Are we out of the parking lot stage?
 4                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  No, sir.  The
 5   parking lot is in the room.
 6                  MR. DOUGHERTY:  Is it open for
 7   discussion?
 8                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  I think your
 9   high-level discussion of that goal is appropriate.  Any
10   detail would be outside the scope of what we're doing
11   today.
12                  MR. DOUGHERTY:  I was wondering what
13   process it would take to create such a commission.  Is
14   this a legislative thing?  Do we have to have a bill?
15   Who sponsors it?  That sort of thing.
16                  CHAIRMAN CLOWE:  It is.  That's exactly
17   right.  It's an item I think that was considered by the
18   Sunset Commission, and I think, after their
19   deliberation, they chose not to make any recommendation
20   in that regard.  If that is a consideration and it has
21   a ground swell of support, I think it would be
22   discussed by the industry members outside of the BAC.
23   I don't think that's a proper subject for the BAC to
24   originate.  I think if it was created and it began to
25   be something that was an issue that was active, the BAC
0163
 1   would want to advise the Commission of it and the
 2   Commission and the Sunset -- when I was interviewed,
 3   the commissioners were interviewed individually, and my
 4   response to that was, just as my response to you was
 5   earlier, you know, wherever the bingo industry is best
 6   regulated is fine with me, and the Sunset Commission
 7   made that decision, but we're up for review in this
 8   current upcoming regular session.
 9                  I think it would be helpful for you,
10   since you don't know that history, for you to visit
11   with members of the industry that are up on it.  And I
12   think there were members who appeared before
13   legislators and discussed that, so that would give you
14   some history.
15                  MR. DOUGHERTY:  Are you talking about
16   the Advisory Committee?  What members do you mean?
17                  CHAIRMAN CLOWE:  I think Steve Bresnen
18   would be the man I would direct you to.  I think he
19   probably has the best and most current history.
20                  MR. DOUGHERTY:  Okay.  That's all I
21   have.
22                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  Thank you.
23                  MR. MANIO:  That is one item that is of
24   concern, and that is, feedback to charities,
25   industries.  It's the same item that Suzanne raised.
0164
 1                  Right now, the only method -- there are
 2   two methods by which we can communicate with the
 3   general public or with the bingo industry, either
 4   through the bingo newsletter -- I'm sorry -- the Bingo
 5   Bulletin or through the web site, and there is a time
 6   element in there, like Suzanne said, that when the
 7   information is posted, it might be two or three months
 8   behind, so the challenge is what medium are we going to
 9   use to be able to convey information to the bingo
10   industry?  I have no answer.  Probably direct mail if
11   it's not prohibited, so that's an area of concern, but
12   I do agree with the intent of that goal.
13                  I strongly agree with two goals.  One is
14   the continuation of the work group.  The work group is
15   the workhorse of the BAC, the deliberations and nuts
16   and bolts and discussions on what happened in the work
17   group, so we need to present it to the committee.  It
18   is in a concise format, but not necessarily the best in
19   substance, so I strongly favor the continuation of the
20   work group and the work plan that goes with it.
21                  Then there is the question of the BAC.
22   Sometime in the next coming year, there will be a
23   decision; a decision will be made whether to continue
24   or disband the BAC, and I'm speaking as an outgoing
25   member of the committee that I favor the continuation
0165
 1   of the BAC, and there are several reasons.  I'm going
 2   to cite a couple of examples of why it should be
 3   continued.
 4                  On the intangible side, there is
 5   something that happened in the committee that is of
 6   benefit to the entire bingo industry, but you will not
 7   see that except in the reference of the committee, and
 8   this is -- when we were discussing a rule about the
 9   card-minding devices, one of the line items in that
10   rule that was proposed was to control the selling price
11   of computers to the bingo playing public, and it was
12   concluded in the work group that such a move would be
13   devastating to the industry.  As a consequence, that
14   line item was dropped and that was the end of that line
15   item.  So, that's an example of an intangible benefit
16   of the Bingo Advisory Committee.
17                  On the tangible side, I can only cite
18   the Bingo Bulletin today.  If you look at the format of
19   the Bingo Bulletin today, it is entirely different from
20   what it was one or two years ago.  There is now more
21   marketing aspects of bingo.  Two or three issues ago,
22   there was -- you know, there were sometimes pictures,
23   you know, and it outlined the charitable things that
24   they did and it also mentioned a little bit about how
25   they ran their bingo operations to generate the profit.
0166
 1   And the Bingo Bulletin, I'm proud to say, the BAC
 2   probably had an influence in the shift in the editorial
 3   policies of the Bingo Bulletin.
 4                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  Thank you.
 5                  MR. WHITTINGTON:  I agree on most
 6   everything up there.  The BAC is a tool that is very
 7   much needed to reach the Charitable Bingo staff as well
 8   as the commissioners.  Without any discussion about
 9   bingo and what goes on in bingo in Texas from the
10   public or the BAC, I can't see anything being done with
11   the Charitable Bingo staff without it.  Because when
12   you just sit in the office and you don't know what's
13   going on out there, it's hard to make any decision
14   about anything.  You can't make a decision if you're
15   not directly involved in something and you can't make
16   that right decision, so I feel, with the BAC being
17   involved in bingo, actually doing bingo, working
18   charities, knowing what the public and what the people
19   need, and hearing from the public, and bringing it to
20   Billy as well as to the commissioners, that's what
21   keeps the ball rolling.
22                  And I'm very much for the work groups
23   because that's where it all starts, and it's been a
24   big, big positive entity to us working with Billy and
25   along with the commissioners to come up with good,
0167
 1   stable answers to all our problems.
 2                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  Thank you.
 3                  MR. MOORE:  I agree with most everything
 4   up there also.  I would hope that the BAC continues.
 5   Obviously, it's the vehicle for the industry to speak.
 6   Also, there's an item up there about new ideas, and I
 7   believe that's probably new products, maybe, too; I'm
 8   not sure if that's how we're interrupting that, but, in
 9   the past, Billy, we've had some demonstrations done
10   here with new products and maybe we can look into doing
11   that in the future again.  I don't know if that's --
12   it's not really prohibited, we just haven't done it, so
13   it might be a good idea, because there's a lot of
14   people that probably don't know what we're talking
15   about sometimes, and to actually touch it, feel it, see
16   it helps a lot, so maybe we can do something like that.
17                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  Anything else?
18                  Okay.  So, the industry and the public
19   can please comment on whether they disagree or have
20   concerns.
21                  MR. FENOGLIO:  Stephen Fenoglio.  The
22   only concern we have is -- it's on the second of the
23   goals for industry/public -- it says, pass
24   authorization for instant bingo.  We already have
25   instant bingo; it's actually instant bingo
0168
 1   card-minders.  That may have been just a drafting
 2   error. Thanks.
 3                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  The next item on
 4   the agenda is:  Where do we go from here?  And I would
 5   ask the commissioners where they see us going from
 6   here.  And I have a little bit of input process-wise of
 7   what I would love to see from here concerning what
 8   we've done today.
 9                  CHAIRMAN CLOWE:  Well, you know, I'm old
10   enough and wise enough to know that smart sometimes is
11   just sit back and think about something before you open
12   your mouth, and we have covered so much ground here
13   today and there's been so much said and written down,
14   frankly, I want some time to just think about
15   everything that we've covered here.  I don't think I'm
16   in a position to answer the question, where do we go
17   from here.  A lot of people have said a lot of good
18   things.  It's been very focused and very productive.
19   The Commission meets on January the 7th and then it
20   doesn't meet again until February, the next month.
21   We've got some time now with the regular sessional
22   coming up.
23                  When is the next BAC meeting?
24                  MR. ATKINS:  It's tentatively scheduled
25   for the 26th of January.
0169
 1                  CHAIRMAN CLOWE:  There's some time to
 2   reflect, then, in my opinion, on this and I don't -- I
 3   don't have a plan and I don't have any response to that
 4   question, Carol, that I think is well thought out.  I
 5   want some time to really go over all this and then I'll
 6   be better prepared to answer that question.
 7                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  That's an excellent
 8   answer, actually.
 9                  COMMISSIONER COX:  Well, I do have one
10   item that I'd like to talk about where we might go on,
11   and that's the two vacancies that are going to be
12   coming up on the BAC.
13                  Suzanne, what are those two vacancies?
14                  MS. TAYLOR:  I'll defer to Billy on
15   that.
16                  CHAIRMAN CLOWE:  It's Pete and Mario,
17   isn't it?
18                  MR. ATKINS:  There is currently a --
19                  MS. TAYLOR:  A service system provider,
20   which we don't have anymore, but that's still
21   legislatively one of the position, so it remains
22   vacant.
23                  MR. ATKINS:  There is also a vacant
24   position for it's charity position that the BAC has
25   recommended an individual for, and we need to schedule
0170
 1   a time for the three commissioners to interview that
 2   individual, but the BAC has made a recommendation on
 3   that position.  That position is actually due to be
 4   re-appointed in February, so you have a total of three
 5   positions, the one that's currently vacant and you're
 6   waiting to interview an individual for as well as the
 7   positions held by Mario and Pete and, as has been
 8   mentioned, I think we've received one nomination form.
 9                  COMMISSIONER COX:  We have real good
10   representation from the public here today, and I hope
11   you see that the work that the Bingo Advisory Committee
12   is doing is important work and I hope that you'll
13   consider serving on this or finding folks who will
14   serve, because they can only be -- the Bingo Advisory
15   Committee can only be effective if they have effective
16   members and we need some new effective members.
17                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  And how do they go
18   about getting an application?
19                  MR. ATKINS:  It's on our web site at
20   www.txbingo.org and also it is my understanding that we
21   are in the process of mailing an application to all
22   licensees.
23                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  Okay.  And from a
24   facilitator's standpoint, just a very low-level
25   logistically, as I understand, this will all be typed
0171
 1   up.  Will it be on the web site or just available?
 2                  MS. JOSEPH:  If there's a demand for it
 3   to be on the web suit, we can certainly consider that.
 4                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  It's an ideal place
 5   to go through your stakeholder's set of information and
 6   look for to-do's and ideas, and so I hope you will use
 7   it as a resource to refresh your memory either of this
 8   meeting or to share this meeting with someone else that
 9   didn't have the opportunity to be here today.
10                  Anything else before we do the very last
11   agenda item?
12                  The last agenda item is to ask, how did
13   this go?  And the way we would typically do this is to
14   talk about the pluses and the deltas, what was good
15   about the way this went and what would you change next
16   time so that this can be a learning experience in the
17   event that they chose to format a meeting in this same
18   way?
19                  And so we'll just go around the room.
20   I'll start with Billy.
21                  MR. ATKINS:  Okay.  Well, I believe that
22   the group did an excellent job -- and I will credit you
23   with a lot of this -- staying focused and staying on
24   schedule.
25                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  Okay.  Thank you.
0172
 1                  MR. ATKINS:  I think there could have
 2   been some benefit -- and I understand that this has,
 3   you know, been evolving over a period of time -- that
 4   maybe had a little more information, such as the final
 5   agenda that we got when we got her today beforehand.
 6                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  Anything else?
 7   Suzanne?
 8                  MS. TAYLOR:  Well, I was going to say
 9   the same thing about the agenda.  The one thing that I
10   liked about this is the interest that we had from the
11   general public and the industry besides the BAC.  We're
12   so used to sitting here talking to ourselves without a
13   whole lot of input that it was nice to see some other
14   people out here, so, obviously, this type of meeting
15   has a lot of interest.
16                  And, also, I talked to Billy about the
17   same thing, I think that the BAC all worked off an
18   agenda that wasn't actually used today because we
19   didn't want to seem like we were not prepared for the
20   meeting, but the first time we saw the actual agenda
21   with what was going to be on it was when we walked in
22   the door today, so if we seemed unprepared, it's
23   because we didn't have a whole lot of time to think
24   about our responses to these items on the agenda.
25                  MS. JOSEPH:  May I clarify something?
0173
 1                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  Sure.
 2                  MS. JOSEPH:  The agenda for today was
 3   published in the Texas Register under the agenda items
 4   for open meetings purposes, and, really, what was
 5   provided to you today was the more specific format for
 6   taking up those items, so there wasn't anything brought
 7   up today that wasn't on the agenda.
 8                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  So, basically, I
 9   hear you saying you would like to have seen the format
10   for the discussion?
11                  MS. TAYLOR:  Correct.  Because I think
12   we could have all been a little more prepared.  I had
13   written some things down in response to the items that
14   I thought were specifically going to be on here, so a
15   lot of our talking today has been off the cuff and not
16   something that was well thought out.  With this type of
17   a meeting, I would have loved to have had a better
18   opportunity to think about these things, you know, the
19   same way Commissioner Clowe said about this last item
20   on here.  It would have been nice to give a little bit
21   more thought and maybe we would have, you know, made
22   even greeter strides today if we would have had more
23   time to think this out.
24                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  Thank you.
25                  MS. ROGERS:  I agree, a little bit
0174
 1   longer to be able to think about that would be good.
 2                  The plus side I see about this meeting
 3   was how we were able to bring up items that we feel
 4   need work in the bingo industry and we were are able to
 5   discuss it, you know, to the extent of how long we
 6   could in one day.  I think there's a lot of people with
 7   great ideas around us.  There are some awesome ideas
 8   out there that will really help move bingo forward.  I
 9   have enjoyed this meeting because it's been very
10   educational to the public as well as to us and to the
11   commissioners, I think.
12                  MR. PAVLOVSKY:  I said it awhile ago and
13   I'll say it again, what a great way to end the year
14   with a joint meeting like this.  To continue with that,
15   what a great way to begin '05.  I think there's just a
16   tremendous amount of information here.  If every one of
17   us don't go home just tremendously motivated, we were
18   asleep during the meeting.  There is a lot of good
19   ideas, a lot of good information, and I think this
20   ought to be done.  And I'm sure y'all are going to
21   consider it.  It's great.  Thank you.
22                  MR. DOUGHERTY:  I'd like to ask, is
23   there anyone in the audience that may have some new
24   auxiliary ideas on what to offer to the bingo halls as
25   revenue producers?  Are there any new ideas from any
0175
 1   other states?  Is there anything like that out here you
 2   would like to speak about?  I see one hand.
 3                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  I am so sorry, we
 4   need to put that in the parking lot.
 5                  MR. DOUGHERTY:  The parking lot?
 6                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  We're off the topic
 7   and it's my job for us to stay on topic, and I'm so
 8   sorry to do this to you again, but we're going to put
 9   it in the parking so we don't lose it, and then we have
10   a gentleman who is happy to visit with you about it at
11   the appropriate time.  Help me capture it.  Ideas for?
12                  MR. DOUGHERTY:  New products.
13                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  Ideas for new
14   products.  Is that right?
15                  MR. DOUGHERTY:  Auxiliary revenue
16   producers at the bingo halls other than pull tabs, but
17   other ideas that other states may have found very
18   successful.  I think we've probably used them all up in
19   Texas.
20                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  This is one of the
21   limitations of this format.  There's a lot of good
22   things about it and then there's some disadvantages,
23   and this is one of them, where we can't just kind of go
24   off in a different direction.  That is an excellent
25   question and obviously one that everybody wants some
0176
 1   answers to, so I hope you will find a form in which to
 2   exchange that information.
 3                  Anything else?
 4                  MR. MANIO:  It is gratifying to see so
 5   much public interest and participation in this forum.
 6   I only wish that we had as much participation from the
 7   public when we were deliberating on some of the rules
 8   that we either approve or disapprove because, after
 9   all, they are directly affected by those rules and we
10   would have gotten a lot more guidance from them had
11   been here during those times, but your presence today
12   is greatly appreciated and we love you so much.
13                  MR. WHITTINGTON:  I just want to say
14   this is a milestone for the commissioners and the BAC
15   as well as the staff to come together, and, of course,
16   the public, to discuss bingo and the future of bingo
17   and where do we go from here, and I think it's just
18   ready for us to just meet with y'all so we can be on
19   the same accord on what's happening with bingo and what
20   we need to do.  I appreciate that.
21                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  Thank you.
22                  MR. MOORE:  I like the format, I think,
23   of going on the table and kind of forcing people to
24   talk.  I think sometimes we might sit back and I think
25   it's a good way to get everybody involved, so I like
0177
 1   the format and I'd like to see us do this again
 2   sometime.
 3                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  Thank you.  And the
 4   public comments about pluses and deltas about the
 5   meeting format.
 6                  MR. BRESNEN:  Steve Bresnen on behalf of
 7   Bingo Interest Group.  I like the format.  I thought
 8   this was very, very productive.  I would -- if I had
 9   any delta-type comment it would just be to maybe grill
10   down and get a little more specific and kind of maybe
11   force everybody to be a little more specific so more
12   to-do's would fall out.
13                  MR. FENOGLIO:  Steve Fenoglio.  And I
14   would share Suzanne's comment that this type of a
15   format is very helpful, but it's not what some of us
16   anticipated this meeting to be about.  It would have
17   been helpful had we had this agenda a few days before.
18   The only notice was that we were going to have a
19   meeting to discuss anything on bingo, and I think there
20   was some people who left who got frustrated by the
21   process, anticipating, perhaps, this was going to be
22   something other than what it was.
23                  I'm not necessarily critical of the
24   process because I think we have covered a lot of
25   ground, but, in the future, the more you can
0178
 1   communicate exactly who's going to do what and the
 2   roles they're going to play, I think you can avoid some
 3   frustrations.
 4                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  Very good.  Anybody
 5   else?
 6                  Okay.  Well, this concludes my portion
 7   of the facilitated meeting.  I believe there's an
 8   agenda item that the BAC will be taking up.
 9                  CHAIRMAN CLOWE:  I don't think you
10   called on us.
11                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  I didn't?  I
12   thought I started with you.  I'm so sorry.  I saved the
13   best for last.  No, truly, I thought I would ask you
14   last and then I forgot.
15                  CHAIRMAN CLOWE:  You called on us for
16   the next-to-the-last question, not the last question.
17                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  I really do want to
18   hear from you.
19                  COMMISSIONER COX:  Well, if you really
20   do.
21                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  I really, really
22   do.
23                  COMMISSIONER COX:  Carol, I think you've
24   done an excellent job and you're a professional in what
25   you did.  One of the things I've learned about
0179
 1   processes like this is that sometimes they're better
 2   measured by the results they produce than by how good
 3   you felt or didn't feel about the format, because I
 4   would have to take some time to think about the format
 5   and figure out really what could possibly be done
 6   better, and you're a professional, you know that this
 7   process produces results, and I think the way we'll
 8   measure this is what kind of results does it produce.
 9                  CHAIRMAN CLOWE:  My comments are that I
10   think a meeting like this is really what makes this
11   country great.  It's the opportunity for people to come
12   together representing their own self-interests, their
13   community interests, their state interests, and express
14   themselves in an orderly, courteous way that is
15   beneficial to all who involve themselves.  This is the
16   only country that I know of in the world that has the
17   kind of government where these kinds of meetings can be
18   held and people can come together and do what we've
19   done here today.  It's a rare thing, and I didn't know
20   how it was going to come out.
21                  Billy and Carol and I met last week and
22   we said, well, we'll have this format.  I've never seen
23   a formal open records public meeting conducted with a
24   facilitator.  I've done it both ways separately, but
25   I've never tried it this way.  I think the structure is
0180
 1   good; I think it can be better.  And assuming that
 2   there's a favorable response to another meeting, I'm
 3   not sure I want to do it quite this way again.  I'd
 4   like to search for a better way.
 5                  The thing that's made this successful to
 6   this point, in my opinion, has been the level of
 7   participation that we've had from everybody, and,
 8   certainly, when you participate in something like this,
 9   when it's over, you feel good, and I think we all are
10   enjoying that rosy glow of having participated and made
11   a contribution.  I've been -- you hear these
12   motivational speakers, you know, where I've walked out
13   and you know, Jesus Christ, I feel good about being
14   here.  I hope we're going to have a little longer
15   lasting effect.
16                  You know, this industry really has some
17   serious problems.  Really, y'all are in trouble; you're
18   in trouble, and the first step to recovery is saying,
19   I'm in trouble and I got to do something about it.  It
20   applies to an illness, you know, a domestic situation.
21   You got to turn around and look at it and start to deal
22   with it.  One of the hopes that I had about this
23   meeting was that we would accomplish things.  I think
24   we've come pretty close to accomplishing.
25                  I would ask each of you to, after the
0181
 1   rosy glow dissipates, think about where you are in your
 2   business interests, and your regulatory interests, your
 3   volunteer interests in this industry and how much you
 4   want to be involved and what level of giving you're
 5   willing to commit to trying to help this industry.
 6                  As I told you in the beginning of the
 7   meeting, the State of Texas is working on its lottery.
 8   The lottery has just come off it's second-best year.
 9   It's right now I think about 14 or 15 percent ahead of
10   the second-best year already in this fiscal year.
11   We're fine-tuning that thing.  I mean, it's -- I think
12   we had the biggest week last week in instant tickets.
13   The executive director was down here a minute ago
14   telling us he's just ecstatic about how successful that
15   thing is.  Can't do that with bingo; can't do it.  The
16   law doesn't provide for it.  We've got a law that I
17   think needs to be changed.
18                  So, there's a big job out there and I'm
19   hopeful that this meeting has been a really tangible
20   first step towards all of y'all participating in
21   solving this problem.  And if we come back together,
22   those of you who are still interested and still
23   involved next year, there will be progress.
24                  I would like to thank you, Carol.  I
25   think you did an excellent job of flying an airplane
0182
 1   that had never gone off the ground before and I think
 2   you got it back on the ground all in one piece and it's
 3   going to work.  And I'd like to thank each of you
 4   individually for your -- if you didn't speak up, you're
 5   being patient, sitting here, listening to this, and
 6   being involved.  There's a lot to be said for just
 7   putting up with all of this and being involved.  Thank
 8   you all again very much.  I think that's all we have
 9   for the Lottery Commission.
10                  The Bingo Advisory Committee has another
11   item on their agenda.
12                  Do you want to make any closing remarks,
13   Carol, before we close our meeting?
14                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  I just thank
15   everybody for trying this new format.  I also have
16   never married facilitation in a public format.  I made
17   a number of mistakes and learned a whole lot, which is
18   invaluable to me as a facilitator, and I thank you.
19                  CHAIRMAN CLOWE:  Let's give her a round.
20                  It is 2:43 p.m., December the 20th, 2004
21   and we will adjourn this meeting of the Texas Lottery
22   Commission.
23                  And, Madam Chair, I believe you have
24   other business to come before your group.  We will
25   excuse ourselves.
0183
 1                  MS. TAYLOR:  Thank you, again.  We
 2   appreciate you allowing us to have this meeting with
 3   you and seeing more than one of you at a time.
 4               BINGO ADVISORY COMMITTEE MEETING
 5                  MS. TAYLOR:  Item No. 4 on the agenda:
 6   Report and possible discussion on the reorganization of
 7   the Charitable Bingo administrative rules.
 8                  MR. ATKINS:  I'm intentionally not
 9   talking yet to give the commissioners time to leave the
10   room.
11                  Madam Chair, members of the staff, I
12   wanted to bring this forward to the BAC for
13   informational purposes.  I believe that we have talked
14   with the Advisory Committee in the past about our
15   intent to reorganize the Charitable Bingo
16   Administrative Rules into subchapters.  And our current
17   goal is to initiate that rule-making process beginning
18   with the Commission meeting that Chairman Clowe talked
19   about earlier in January when the staff would ask the
20   Commission to propose for public comment.
21                  What, actually, it would be is the
22   simultaneous repeal of all of the existing rules and
23   the re-adoption of them into subchapters with new rule
24   numbers, and we would, at the same time, update
25   outdated citations that are contained in the current
0184
 1   rules.  There is no substantive change to any of the
 2   rule reorganization that's being proposed.
 3                  The purpose of the reorganization into
 4   subchapters is to make it easier for the public to
 5   locate and identify a specific rule that they're
 6   searching for.  And included in your notebook -- and I
 7   think copies are being made and distributed outside, if
 8   they have the already been made available -- but it's
 9   just the first blush of the proposal that the staff
10   would have in terms of the reorganization.
11                  And, very quickly, let me go through
12   what you have in your notebook.  You know, as it is
13   now, whenever you get the rule book or if you go out to
14   the Texas Administrative Code and you look up the bingo
15   rules, you just get one big laundry list of
16   administrative rules, and so you either have to know
17   specifically what you're looking for or go down each
18   row -- each rule.  I'm sorry.
19                  What the staff is proposing is the
20   development of subchapters, which we believe would be
21   grouped in such a way to make it a little easier for
22   someone to identify a specific rule that they were
23   looking for, and so what you have in your notebook
24   would be the staff's first suggestion, first of all, on
25   the subchapters.  Then what we have done is, we have
0185
 1   gone in and identified new rule numbers, given the name
 2   of the rule, so if you look, the first subchapter would
 3   be Subchapter A, administration; the proposed new rule
 4   number would be 402.100.
 5                  There would be definitions.  You see off
 6   to the side where it says update citations, which
 7   indicates that there are citations contained in that
 8   rule that are either outdated as a result of the
 9   re-codification of the Bingo Enabling Act or just
10   changes to new rules that have been proposed.  Beside
11   that in parentheses is that rules current existing rule
12   number.  So, that's how you would read that sheet.
13                  We've identified -- three, four, five
14   six -- seven subchapters, and you'll see that within
15   each subchapter, there is a unique rule numbering
16   pattern.  For example, starting with Subchapter A, all
17   rules in that subchapter would start with 100.  All
18   rules starting in Subchapter B would start in 200, et
19   cetera.  Again, another methodology to make it a little
20   easier for individuals to identify and locate a
21   particular rule.
22                  So, our plan would be to propose to the
23   Commission at their January 7th meeting that they
24   publish this rule -- they vote to publish this rule
25   reorganization in the Texas Register for public
0186
 1   comment.  It's also our intent at this time to include
 2   a public hearing on this to give individuals the
 3   opportunity to comment on the proposed subchapters and
 4   groupings of the rules, and that should also provide,
 5   if there is an interest by the BAC at their January
 6   26th meeting, to comment on this reorganization.
 7                  I'm looking to Sandy Joseph to see if I
 8   covered all that correctly.
 9                  I'd be happy to answer any questions any
10   of you may have.
11                  MS. TAYLOR:  Just as observation.  That
12   is a discussion item only, so we don't take any action
13   on it, but it seems like the main people that this will
14   have an impact on it, besides being able to find these
15   rules a little bit easier, would be the two Steves, and
16   they're going to have to re-memorize some new numbers.
17                  MR. ATKINS:  And we do now have some
18   copies for anyone that would be interested.  Worlanda,
19   if you'll put those on the desk outside.
20                  And that's all I had
21                  MR. MANIO:  I have a question.
22                  MR. ATKINS:  Yes.
23                  MR. MANIO:  About two BAC meetings ago,
24   I believe to the best of my recollection, we formed a
25   work group for this reorganization.  In view of the
0187
 1   information that you gave us today, is it necessary to
 2   dissolve or continue that work group?
 3                  MR. ATKINS:  I'm going to have to go
 4   back and check, Mario.  I didn't know there was a work
 5   group specifically for the rule reorganization.
 6                  MR. MANIO:  Yes, and that was Sandy and
 7   myself and I believe it was Patricia Greenfield at the
 8   time.
 9                  MR. ATKINS:  You know, I think it's
10   perfectly all right for the work group to stay formed
11   during this process and, you know, to look at either
12   this draft or the proposal that's taken to the
13   Commission and comment on it.
14                  MR. MANIO:  Okay.
15                  MS. TAYLOR:  Was there any other
16   discussion on this item?  Anything from the group?
17                  Okay.  The next item on the agenda is
18   public comment.  There's one item that I wanted to talk
19   about.
20                  We have a lot of information that's been
21   posted on the walls.  I asked Billy if the bingo staff
22   was going to be able to type this up for us so we could
23   have this in a written format, if not, Kimberly has
24   volunteered to type this up for us, so the offer is
25   open.  If she can take it, she'll do it.
0188
 1                  MR. ATKINS:  And that sounds like that
 2   will be great, so we will get that to her.
 3                  MS. TAYLOR:  Terrific.  Then we would
 4   hope to have it available in our next meeting and be
 5   also an agenda item just to discuss it with people that
 6   were not here.
 7                  Any other public comment?
 8                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  Am I a part of the
 9   public now?
10                  MS. TAYLOR:  Sure, you are.
11                  FACILITATOR LAUDER:  I made a huge
12   mistake earlier and forget to acknowledge Sandy Joseph,
13   who did all that writing.  Look at the walls, so let's
14   here it for her.
15                  MS. TAYLOR:  If there is no other public
16   comment, then, our next meeting is scheduled for
17   January 26th at 10:00 a.m.  We hope the public will be
18   here.
19                  This meeting will be adjourned at
20   2:52 p.m.
21   
22   
23   
24   
25   
0189
 1                   REPORTER'S CERTIFICATION
 2   
 3   STATE OF TEXAS         )
 4   COUNTY OF TRAVIS       )
 5   
 6             I, KIMBERLYE A. FURR, Certified Shorthand
 7   Reporter for the State of Texas, do hereby certify that
 8   the above-captioned matter came on for hearing before
 9   the TEXAS LOTTERY COMMISSION and THE BINGO ADVISORY
10   COMMITTEE as hereinafter set out, that I did, in
11   shorthand, report said proceedings, and that the above
12   and foregoing typewritten pages contain a full, true,
13   and correct computer-aided transcription of my
14   shorthand notes taken on said occasion.
15   
16             Witness my hand on this the 2nd day of
17   January, 2005.
18   
19   
20                 ___________________________
                   KIMBERLYE A. FURR
21                 Texas CSR No. 6997
                   Expiration Date:  12/31/05
22                 1801 North Lamar
                   Mezzanine Level
23                 Austin, Texas  78701
                   (512) 474-4363
24   
25   JOB NO.041220KAF