0001 1 TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS 2 BEFORE THE 3 TEXAS LOTTERY COMMISSION 4 AUSTIN, TEXAS 5 6 16 TEXAS ADMINISTRATIVE CODE § § 7 §402.210, §402.211, §402.709 § 8 9 PUBLIC COMMENT HEARING ON RULEMAKINGS 10 TUESDAY, OCTOBER 16, 2007 11 12 BE IT REMEMBERED THAT on Tuesday, the 13 16th day of October 2007, the above-entitled public 14 comment hearing was held from 10:06 a.m. to 12:40 15 p.m., at the Offices of the Texas Lottery Commission, 16 611 East 6th Street, Austin, Texas 78701, before 17 SANDRA JOSEPH, OFFICE OF THE GENERAL COUNSEL. The 18 following proceedings were reported via machine 19 shorthand by Aloma J. Kennedy, a Certified Shorthand 20 Reporter of the State of Texas, and the following 21 proceedings were had: 22 23 24 25 0002 1 APPEARANCES 2 ASSISTANT GENERAL COUNSEL: 3 Ms. Sandra Joseph 4 CHARITABLE BINGO ASSISTANT DIRECTOR: Mr. Philip D. Sanderson 5 SENIOR AUDIT MANAGER: 6 Mr. Marshall McDade, Jr. 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 0003 1 TABLE OF CONTENTS 2 PAGE NO. 3 PROCEEDINGS - TUESDAY, OCTOBER 16, 2007 4 4 COMMENTS ON BEHALF OF THE STATE VFW AND SEVERAL BUSINESS ORGANIZATION (FENOGLIO) 5 5 COMMENTS ON BEHALF OF THE 6 BINGO INTEREST GROUP (BRESNEN) 28 7 COMMENTS ON BEHALF OF CHARITIES THAT ARE BINGO CONDUCTORS (HEINLEIN) 54 8 COMMENTS ON BEHALF OF FORT WORTH 9 BOOKKEEPING (IVES) 59 10 COMMENTS ON BEHALF OF TEJAS BINGO AND PALACE BINGO (SILVER) 65 11 COMMENTS ON BEHALF OF SAD SACK UNIT 96 12 (CLARK) 78 13 COMMENTS ON BEHALF OF AMERICAN VETERANS POST 52 (HUTCHINGS) 79 14 COMMENTS ON BEHALF OF 15 YOUTH BENEFIT, INC. (PRUITT) 80 16 COMMENTS ON BEHALF OF ALL SAINTS BINGO UNIT TRUST (TAYLOR) 88 17 ADDITIONAL COMMENT ON BEHALF OF THE 18 BINGO INTEREST GROUP (BRESNEN) 97 19 REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE 99 20 21 22 23 24 25 0004 1 P R O C E E D I N G S 2 TUESDAY, OCTOBER 16, 2007 3 (10:06 a.m.) 4 MS. JOSEPH: Good morning. 5 FROM THE FLOOR: Morning. 6 MS. JOSEPH: This is a public hearing 7 that has been scheduled and called in order to receive 8 public comments on three proposed Charitable Bingo 9 administrative rules. Those are 402.210 pertaining to 10 house rules, 402.211 pertaining to fair conduct and 11 402.709 pertaining to corrective action - audit. 12 My name is Sandra Joseph. I'm 13 Assistant General Counsel. To my right is Phil 14 Sanderson, Director of the Bingo Division. And to my 15 left is Marshall McDade. He's the Audit Manager of 16 the Bingo Division. 17 We appreciate your coming today to 18 share your comments with us. And what we want to do 19 is to receive your comments. 20 At this time I would like to ask anyone 21 who plans to present testimony to raise your right 22 hand and take an oath that the testimony you give will 23 be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the 24 truth. If so, please answer "Yes." 25 FROM THE FLOOR: Yes. 0005 1 MS. JOSEPH: All right. Thank you. 2 These rules were published on 3 October 5th in the Texas Register. The comment period 4 runs for 30 days from that date, and I believe that's 5 November 4th. I'm not positive. Check -- is it the 6 5th? Okay. It doesn't always fall that way, and I 7 wasn't sure. But Mr. Fenoglio indicates he has looked 8 recently and it's November 5th. So any written 9 comments you would like to submit need to be received 10 by that time. 11 I have a number of witness affirmation 12 forms up here. And at this time I would like to ask 13 Mr. Stephen Fenoglio if he would like to offer his 14 comments. 15 COMMENTS ON BEHALF OF THE STATE VFW 16 AND SEVERAL BUSINESS ORGANIZATIONS 17 MR. FENOGLIO: Thank you, Ms. Joseph. 18 For the record, my name is Stephen Fenoglio. I'm an 19 attorney in Austin, and I filed an appearance slip on 20 behalf of 1,200-plus charitable and business 21 organizations, including the State VFW. 22 I circulated to both -- well, 23 Mr. Sanderson yesterday the written comments that I 24 have, and I brought extras for people in the audience 25 if they want to see them. 0006 1 The rules process started earlier this 2 summer. And Mr. Sanderson -- that's not my cell 3 phone, but I'm going to make sure that mine is, in 4 fact, turned down -- appointed -- I guess the Bingo 5 Advisory Committee appointed three different 6 workgroups, and I served on two of the three of the 7 workgroups. And the rules have been changed 8 significantly from where we started out. And we thank 9 Mr. Sanderson and Mr. McDade, and I think there were 10 half a dozen other Commission staff who worked with 11 the workgroups to move the process along, and we've 12 certainly done a good job with that. 13 So our comments and my comments I 14 submitted are in bold, as I've done before, and I've 15 added line numbers and page numbers so it's easy to 16 follow along. We think there are still some crucial 17 differences and improvements that need to be made to 18 the rules. So I'll start first with 402.210, house 19 rules. 20 And we understand from the Commission, 21 from visiting with Mr. McDade and others, that some of 22 the greatest -- well, I guess the greatest level of 23 complaints that the Commission staff, the Bingo 24 Division staff addresses have to do with complaints of 25 house rules, either in the nature of the charity has 0007 1 the house rules posted and they haven't always 2 followed them or there are decisions that are made 3 within the hall that aren't addressed by a house rule 4 and someone feels it's unfair. And we can understand 5 the Commission wanting to tidy that issue up, if you 6 will, with house rules. But we would remind the 7 Commission and the Division that they're not a 8 consumer protection agency, that they're a regulator 9 of Charitable Bingo. And the overarching mission of 10 the regulation seems to us to be -- and it's found in 11 the Bingo Enabling Act -- is to ensure the integrity 12 of the games and that the proceeds are used for stated 13 purposes. 14 So while we don't want to come across 15 as being harsh on the Commission's view of what the 16 rules must contain or should contain, it seems to us 17 that this is in the nature of what each charity thinks 18 is best or a group of charities think is best. 19 And I provided to both Ms. Joseph and 20 Mr. Sanderson this morning the River City bingo rules, 21 which I also brought a few copies of. And they're 22 very short and would not meet the standard in the 23 house rules. And one of the reasons they're short is 24 because we believe -- I think at last count, our 25 average attendance for a daytime hall for the most 0008 1 part, average attendance is around 140 customers per 2 session. And there may be complaints that we receive 3 from a longstanding good customer that we may choose, 4 because it's a business that we run, to address their 5 complaint differently than if it's a customer who 6 shows up who is a constant complainer, if you will. 7 And some halls have those types of customers, that it 8 doesn't matter what goes on, they're going to 9 complain. 10 And it seems to me, just as a business 11 would do, be it a large business like a Wal-Mart store 12 or a mom and pop bakery, around-the-corner bakery 13 shop, if it's a long-term customer, that business 14 would address a complaint far differently than if it's 15 a customer who is either (A), constantly complaining, 16 or (B), raises an issue that, you know, we don't have 17 a house rule in effect on that. And that manager or 18 that owner has to make a decision on the fly, as 19 opposed to what we view the essence of the rules to be 20 under the house rule, is it has to be the same for 21 every situation or you're anticipating that each of 22 the charity's halls should have some basic house 23 rules. 24 So taking that as it is -- and I want 25 to turn to the Subparagraph (5), the contingency plan. 0009 1 Again, this is a mandatory. The charity has to have a 2 contingency plan. And in my copy, it's at the top of 3 Page 4 of 11, Lines 1 through 4. And "inclement," 4 that word could mean different things to different 5 people. Under dictionary.com, the definition means 6 severe, rough, harsh or stormy. Well, I would suggest 7 to you that in certain parts of the state, they have a 8 lot of stormy weather, and most charities won't have a 9 contingency plan for stormy weather. In fact, most 10 charities in halls I've talked with don't have any 11 house rule for severe weather 12 In the case of River City, we do not. 13 And the only time that I'm aware of in the last five 14 years that the hall has made a decision had to do with 15 the severe ice storm like we suffered earlier this 16 year in which the manager made the decision during the 17 session, or perhaps toward the end of the session, 18 that the hall was going to close. And there was no 19 decision made at the end of that session whether to 20 open the next day, because they didn't know how severe 21 the ice storm was. 22 As it turned out, to my recollection, 23 there were two days, in addition to the abbreviated 24 session, that occurred, two additional days where the 25 hall remained closed. And it seems to us that it's 0010 1 unreasonable to have a hard and fast rule on that 2 because, again, the hall manager may have to make that 3 decision -- or an assistant manager, as it occurs. 4 And is similar to a power outage, 5 you'll again notice that River City doesn't have a 6 rule on power outage, and that hall has been in 7 existence at I-35 and Braker Lane since about '92, and 8 we've never had a rule on a power outage. The realty 9 is, we've rarely ever had a power outage, although 10 we've had a power surge that has resulted temporarily 11 in a power outage a few times. 12 And equipment failure, you will have 13 one or two card-minders on occasion that will need to 14 be rebooted, just as any computer occasionally needs 15 to be rebooted. And it occurs to us that if that were 16 the case and if, let's say, two of the 50 card-minders 17 had to be rebooted, it might be a different rule than 18 if all 50 failed, for whatever reason -- perhaps it 19 was a server-related issue -- but, yet, we're supposed 20 to have a rule for that. And what I'm suggesting is 21 that we believe the better practice is to the 22 charities decide what that should be. 23 And then in the category of other 24 emergencies, by its very nature, you can't determine 25 what that other emergency might be. It could be a 0011 1 tornado. It could be a fire next door. It could be 2 any number of things -- a robbery in the same strip 3 center -- that might necessitate different rules. So 4 we believe that's a little over-broad. 5 Turning back to the first part of the 6 rule under Subparagraph (2) of Subparagraph (e), 7 requirement that taxpayer number has to be announced 8 at the beginning of the session, and we don't think 9 there's any need for that. Most problems, if they 10 occur -- and the Bingo Division needs to know what 11 charity was in charge: Well, what time of day did 12 that occur? Was it at 7:30 p.m.? Well, then, 13 Mr. McDade can go on the computer, and then he knows 14 the name of the hall or the address, he knows 15 immediately who was licensed to conduct, and he's 16 going to start his investigation there. 17 I don't even know what the taxpayer 18 numbers of the charities at River City Bingo are, and 19 I don't think anyone really cares to know what those 20 taxpayer numbers are. If it's the ARC of the capital 21 area, that ought to be good enough. And if someone 22 wants to know what the taxpayer number is, they can go 23 on the license and look. My understanding is, almost 24 everyone will announce at the beginning of the session 25 the name of the charity, and that ought to be good 0012 1 enough. 2 How the prize will be split when there 3 are multiple winners of a bingo game again is a nuance 4 that it ought to be left at the bingo hall and not 5 spelled out in a hall rule. Some charities will 6 change their game format. And it may be listed on 7 the -- as it is in River City's, it's published game 8 sheet where you can see first session, Level 1 and 9 Level 2, et cetera, and those may change. As they do, 10 you'll notice that the one I handed out is a Monday 11 session. Our game sets often do change on special 12 sessions or on -- we have a midnight game Saturday 13 night. So it occurs to us that having it in the house 14 rule as opposed to a program sheet is too arbitrary. 15 Back on the contingency plan now, 16 again, we think that's overreaching. And I went on 17 the Commission -- or I did a word search on the 18 Lottery side. And it occurs to us if you're going to 19 have the same rule, it ought to be applied to the 20 Lottery, who does drawings similar to bingo and their 21 different lottery products. And there are no rules 22 published in the Texas Register for the Lottery to 23 address this. I'm sure there are internal directives, 24 standards that the Lottery utilizes if there's 25 inclement weather or a power surge. But having it 0013 1 published -- and if it is on the Commission's website, 2 I couldn't find it, after looking for it for about 10 3 minutes. 4 Under Subparagraph (7) of acceptable 5 payment options for purchase, again the nature of the 6 Libertarian streak that runs deep within the Bingo 7 Division, why do you need to know that. And the 8 refund policy, the same is true. Why? Again, there 9 may be a different refund policy for a very good 10 business reason, if it's a longstanding customer who 11 occasionally wants a refund. And, again, if it's a 12 longstanding customer, most charities are going to 13 bend over backwards to meet that standard, as opposed 14 to someone who just always wants a refund. And, 15 again, a good business person will distinguish between 16 a long-term customer and someone who just -- who the 17 long-term customer rarely ever requests a refund, as 18 opposed to someone who constantly requests a refund. 19 Under Subparagraph (f), this is an area 20 of: If applicable, the rules must contain or shall 21 contain the following information. My friend, Chuck 22 Thompson, who is with the North Dallas Bingo Unit 23 who -- Phil, I encouraged him and I believe he's going 24 to put in writing his comments, but he wanted me to 25 raise one issue which is in the nature of a -- I 0014 1 thought initially a nit pick; but, actually, it's a 2 good catch. The way it reads is that the last number 3 called must be on the winning card. And his comment 4 addresses that it should say, quote, must be included 5 in the winning bingo, quote, as there is usually more 6 than one face on a card, somewhat technical 7 observation, but I think it's directly on point. 8 Under Subparagraph (3), that players 9 must purchase paper or tickets by a certain time to 10 participate in a bingo game, it seems to be that ought 11 to be something that the charities address, not 12 necessarily in a house rule. 13 "That persons under the age of 18 are 14 allowed on the premises," there is a statute that 15 addresses players of age 18. Some halls prohibit 16 people under the age of 18 from coming. Other halls 17 do. But so what? 16-year-olds can play bingo and 18 many do. And what's the rationale for that? 19 And I do point out, which Mr. Sanderson 20 addressed, the first rule on River City is, no one 21 under 18 is allowed into the bingo hall. But again, 22 so what? You know, some charities may actively 23 encourage people to bring their children at certain 24 times perhaps. Others, as in the case of River City, 25 is going to say no one under 18 is allowed. 0015 1 MR. SANDERSON: Steve -- 2 MR. FENOGLIO: Yes? 3 MR. SANDERSON: -- before you get to -- 4 you're already into like No. (4) or (5) on this one. 5 The "If applicable" portion of this -- and I know 6 y'all had numerous discussions in the workgroups as it 7 related to these items. And we're not saying that 8 this information has to be on the house rules or there 9 even has to be a house rule that addresses this 10 information. 11 What we're saying is that if your 12 playing rules at your hall, for example, require that 13 you have the last number, then you need to put it on 14 your house rules, that the last number called -- you 15 know, the winning bingo card face must have that last 16 number called, because we get complaints where 17 organizing have that in their house rule but then they 18 don't follow it. And, you know, I think that's where 19 these areas are just "If applicable." If you have an 20 internal policy that says no one under 12 may be in 21 the bingo hall, then we ask that you just put that in 22 your house rules. 23 MR. FENOGLIO: And I hear that, Phil. 24 But so what? I mean, let's assume that that is the 25 case, no one under 12 is allowed, that's the house 0016 1 rule. And Jim Johnson, long-term customer, his 2 grandkids are in town, he goes up to the hall manager, 3 and they're six and eight and they're well-behaved. 4 And they say, you know, "Is it okay if my grandkids 5 play?" And again, the hall manager knows that Jim 6 Johnson is one of their best long-term players, and he 7 says, "Sure." So what? 8 I mean, from my perspective, it's not 9 something that the division should care about, because 10 I would hope the division is not going to sanction 11 that charity or that hall manager for making a 12 decision that, "Generally speaking, we don't allow 13 anyone under 12; but, yes, Jim Johnson has been here 14 for 12 years and he shows up four days a week to play 15 bingo. And so, yes, I made that decision to allow him 16 to do so." 17 I don't think the Commission is going 18 to sanction him for that, so why does it matter? And 19 that's kind of the reaction I get from a lot of 20 charitable organizations and other licensees is, "What 21 difference does it make?" 22 MR. SANDERSON: Well -- and I don't 23 know -- and I don't have the statute in front of me. 24 I forgot to bring it with me, if someone has a copy. 25 I'm sure Mr. Fenoglio has several copies in his back 0017 1 pocket. 2 MR. FENOGLIO: Not in my back pocket. 3 MR. SANDERSON: And I don't recall 4 right off the top of my head the section that talks 5 about persons under the age of 18. I want to say it's 6 around like 411 or something like that. 7 MR. FENOGLIO: Yes. 8 MR. SANDERSON: And I know, first off, 9 it says no one under the age of 18 may play bingo 10 unless they are accompanied by a parent or guardian. 11 And then I think it goes on to say that there is some 12 language in there that the organization may prohibit 13 individuals from any other age, as long as it's stated 14 or -- did you find the exact one? 15 MR. FENOGLIO: It's 418. 16 MR. SANDERSON: 418. And it says by 17 posting a written notice to that effect, and so that's 18 the reason why we have that in that particular house 19 rule. 20 MR. FENOGLIO: Right. And so again, if 21 the charity had that hall -- or that house rule 22 attempting -- in your mind, the division is trying to 23 enforce (b), 418(b). Well, what's the result? And I 24 don't know that the division knows. My sense is, they 25 probably write a letter that says, "We had a complaint 0018 1 that you allowed a customer to bring in two children 2 under the age of 12. You have a house rule that says 3 that no one under the age of 12 are allowed in the 4 bingo hall while bingo is being played." 5 And, you know, I guess that's all the 6 division would do. I'm hoping the division wouldn't 7 decide to sanction the licensed charity in some way by 8 imposition of a fine or some sort of licensing 9 sanction. I mean, it just seems to me, that, yes, 10 that's what the statute says, and the charity was at 11 variance with its rule. But, again, isn't that 12 something the charity ought to worry about, not the 13 division? 14 MR. SANDERSON: You know, if it 15 happens, we'll address it at that point in time. But 16 I just wanted to bring out that Paragraph (f) are more 17 applicable -- it's like -- well, we started out with 18 the word "If" -- 19 MR. FENOGLIO: Yes. 20 MR. SANDERSON: -- and then we changed 21 it to "Whether," and then it was changed to a separate 22 paragraph altogether. Just so everyone is clear, 23 these are not anything that's required. It's 24 something that if you have -- primarily to put the 25 players on notice of what the playing rules are. You 0019 1 know, that's the whole aspect of what the house rules 2 more or less deal with, is just putting the players on 3 notice of how the games are going to be conducted so 4 if a new player walks in, they can understand the 5 games and understand what the procedures are and so 6 forth. I just wanted to say that. I didn't mean to 7 interrupt your comments -- 8 MR. FENOGLIO: Fair enough. 9 MR. SANDERSON: -- or change your train 10 of thought. 11 MR. FENOGLIO: Sure. Next comment, 12 moving to Subparagraph (g), you have the information 13 that must be announced. And again, part of that is 14 the taxpayer number, and we don't see any particular 15 reason for that. 16 And then language in (f)(1) through 17 (3), et cetera 18 Turning to the fair conduct rule, my 19 first comment is in Subparagraph (b)(5). I think I 20 understand the rationale of inspection, and I would 21 agree that at least for some customers, they may want 22 to have the option to witness the inspection. But 23 this ignores -- it goes too far, and it goes too far 24 in the category of how a charity assembles its sets. 25 Many charities will assemble those sets before the 0020 1 licensed time occurs, and then they'll put them in 2 packs, player packs for the runners to pick up and 3 start selling. The way the rule is drafted, they 4 cannot do that. And we think that's wrong, to have a 5 rule so artificially -- that type of artificial 6 requirement. 7 Furthermore, in some occasions when a 8 customer walks up and wants to buy additional paper, 9 it may be that the charity has to reach out and open 10 up a new pack of paper. Literally, they wouldn't be 11 allowed to do this, because it has to be inspected in 12 front of a customer. And again, if it's a sealed pack 13 of paper that's been sealed pursuant to the Commission 14 rule, that ought to be good enough. 15 River City Bingo, under Subparagraph 16 (6) of the same subsection, replacement of balls or 17 cards, if balls or cards are missing, damaged or 18 otherwise compromised. Bingo balls or cards shall be 19 replaced in complete sets. And I get differing views 20 from different charitable organizations. 21 River City replaces the balls in sets. 22 Many other charities, though, if B3 is -- if the B3 23 ball is defective, they'll reach into a new set, take 24 out the B3 and continue to conduct in that fashion, 25 with a new ball, as opposed to replacing the complete 0021 1 set. 2 I think we had some information during 3 the informal drafting of these rules that the cost of 4 a set of bingo balls varies from $80 to $150, it's my 5 recollection, so it's not like it's a small charge. 6 And particularly if it's a VFW post that conducts once 7 a month -- or I'm sorry -- once a week, that might be 8 a huge expense for the charity to undertake. We think 9 it ought to be on a case-by-case basis, I guess. 10 Under Subparagraph (8)(A), if a problem 11 is discovered with the equipment while the game is in 12 progress, the game is voided and must be replayed. 13 And this is where I want to go with the comment I made 14 earlier. If there are two of 50 card-minders that 15 have to be rebooted, there were problems with those 16 two card-minders, and they can be rebooted quickly -- 17 maybe the session is paused while those two sets are 18 rebooted, the bingo employee and the customer verify 19 that, once rebooted, the card-minder is working 20 appropriately -- then it occurs to us we shouldn't 21 have to void the game and be replayed, as opposed to 22 if all 50 sets have multiple problems, then I would 23 agree with you, it's going to be a good business 24 decision to restart or, you know, for whatever reason. 25 But the way (8)(A) is drafted, there is no flexibility 0022 1 for a charitable organization to make a decision that, 2 "Well, we can pause the game and solve a minor problem 3 as opposed to a major problem." 4 Under Subparagraph (B), now you're 5 telling us that you have to have a house rule to 6 address these issues. And again, it may be that 7 that's going to be on a case-by-case basis, because if 8 there is a problem discovered with this equipment 9 after it's closed, then we have to follow the 10 procedures in accordance. Again, it suggests we have 11 to have procedures for that, and many halls do not. 12 It's going to be done on a case-by-case basis, that 13 the hall manager or assistant managers, whoever is in 14 charge, making that decision. 15 My friend Chuck Thompson raised a good 16 point on Subparagraph (9)(D), as in "David." If a 17 problem is discovered after the game has been closed, 18 then you're going to follow established procedures in 19 accordance with 210(e)(5), which says you're going to 20 have to have a procedure for this. And his 21 observation is, if it's discovered after the game has 22 been closed and there is no complaint, customer 23 complaint, winning prizes most likely would have been 24 paid out. And he wants to make sure that Phil 25 Sanderson or Marshall McDade are present when he goes 0023 1 to those customers and asks for their money back to 2 start the game over, because he says, you know, it 3 might get ugly in a hurry. 4 MR. SANDERSON: Just tell Chuck to give 5 me a call, and I'll catch the next Southwest flight up 6 to Dallas and -- 7 MR. FENOGLIO: And they'll freeze the 8 game. 9 MR. SANDERSON: -- freeze the game and 10 wait until I get there, yes. 11 MR. FENOGLIO: I mean, he raises a good 12 point. If there has not been a customer complaint, 13 they discover after the fact that a ball was missing, 14 for example, it may be that that hall decides, "We're 15 not going to say anything, because that means we've 16 got to go get money back from customers," and they 17 will have ensured that most likely that customer will 18 never set foot in that hall again. 19 Under Subparagraph (10)(A)(ii), the 20 caller -- these are requirements for the caller -- 21 must gain the attention of the caller when the players 22 bingo. And it may be that -- our suggestion is 23 getting the attention of the caller or floor worker, 24 because it may be that the caller is located in an 25 area -- some halls have a balcony area or there is a 0024 1 non-smoking area or there is a wall separating where 2 the person is -- the person can actually see the balls 3 being drawn on closed-circuit TV; but they, for 4 whatever reason, can't gain the attention of the 5 caller. 6 In the case of the River City Bingo 7 rule, the customer just has to get the attention of 8 either the caller or the floor worker. And if they 9 get the attention of a floor worker, then the floor 10 worker makes sure that the caller is made aware. 11 Under Subparagraph (10)(B), only the 12 caller can handle the balls during each bingo game. 13 And this doesn't allow -- if you're training a new 14 caller, it may be that the trainee -- the caller is 15 training the trainee while they're calling the game, 16 and the trainee may be the one that reaches out, 17 brings the ball off the blower and puts it under the 18 camera, if you will. And so that may be something 19 that that caller wants to have the flexibility to do, 20 and we don't see any reason why they shouldn't be able 21 to do so. 22 Under Subparagraph (10)(H), "announce 23 in a manner clear and audible to the players the 24 number of winners and the total amount of" prizes 25 awarded for the game. And again, in the River City 0025 1 case, we have the program that announces those levels. 2 And while River City doesn't play speed bingo, there 3 are many halls that do, and they may be playing $50 4 games, and they may play 20 games in a licensed 5 session or perhaps many more than 20 games during a 6 four-hour session. They may be playing 15 games per 7 hour. The caller may be unaware what particular 8 amount they're playing for. And so striking the words 9 "total amount of money or prizes," just announcing the 10 number of winners might be sufficient: "We've got 11 three bingo winners. We're moving on to the next 12 game." 13 Under Subparagraph (11)(A), it 14 mandatorily required that a bingo worker must have a 15 presence in each playing area. And what I'm concerned 16 about is if you have a -- which most halls now do -- a 17 segregated smoking and non-smoking section. In the 18 case of River City Bingo, there will be times during 19 the session where a runner that's assigned to the 20 non-smoking section goes to the cashier to get more 21 paper or pull-tabs, and so there's not someone there. 22 Generally speaking, River City is going to have at 23 least one runner in the smoking and at least one 24 runner in the non-smoking, but there will be times 25 when that won't happen. And so technically, when that 0026 1 happens, they would be in violation of (11)(A). 2 And under (11)(B), the worker shall not 3 communicate verbally to the caller or in any manner 4 the number or symbols needed by any player -- I'm 5 sorry. The way it's written now is not communicate 6 verbally the number of symbols needed by any player to 7 win a bingo game. 8 And our concern is, if you have a new 9 customer coming in -- we don't have many, 10 unfortunately, that come in but we do have some -- and 11 that bingo player may honestly believe they have 12 bingoed because they have -- in the traditional form 13 of bingo, they've got a straight-line bingo. But in 14 this particular instance, they're playing four-corners 15 bingo. And so the customer, being a newby, isn't 16 aware that they need G62 number to be called. 17 So the runner, trying to educate the 18 new customer, says, "No, you need G62 because we're 19 playing a four-corners bingo." "Oh, that makes 20 sense." Well, the way it's drafted right now, they 21 can't do that, nor could they "This is where you need" 22 if they didn't actually say the words "G62." 23 So our suggestion is not communicate 24 verbally to the caller, which would be -- most people 25 would think that if they were doing that, would be a 0027 1 rigged game or suggestion of a rigged game, which to 2 the extent that I've had time to visit with different 3 charities and bingo representatives, no one ever does 4 tell the caller, "I need G62 called." So we think 5 that would be a good fix. 6 And then finally, in Subparagraph (d), 7 no pull-tab -- bingo event tickets must be sold prior 8 to the occurrence of the event, and we're not clear 9 what you mean by "occurrence." It could be -- the 10 word "occurrence" could mean when it starts and event 11 tickets are going to be sold throughout when a game is 12 played -- or many halls do that. And so it may be 13 that the -- again, not quite what the staff is trying 14 to get to, but the word "end of the event" as opposed 15 to the "occurrence." 16 Finally, one comment on corrective 17 action - audit, 402.709. Under Subparagraph (a)(1), 18 the way we understand this is drafted is, once a 19 determination letter is issued, then the charity must 20 take certain action. And our observation is: What if 21 the licensee disputes the determination? The draft 22 rule suggests punitive action will occur even when an 23 organization has a good-faith or a reasonable dispute 24 with the division. And on the back end, under 25 Subparagraph (c), we believe the words "notice of" 0028 1 should be inserted at the beginning of lines -- or 2 new-made Subparagraphs (1), (2) and (3) because, 3 literally, the Commission division cannot issue a 4 license revocation. There is just a notice and then 5 the hearing process begins. 6 Someone could read that and say, "If I 7 don't agree" -- a charity could read that and say, "I 8 don't agree. If I don't, I get a license 9 revocation" -- and that's not how the process would 10 work -- or "I get a license suspension" or "I get an 11 administrative penalty." No, there is a process by 12 which they go through. 13 Be happy to answer any questions. I 14 hope I've addressed in sufficient detail that you can 15 follow my observations. Thank you. 16 MS. JOSEPH: Thank you, Mr. Fenoglio. 17 Mr. Bresnen. 18 COMMENTS ON BEHALF OF THE BINGO INTEREST GROUP 19 MR. BRESNEN: My name is Steve Bresnen, 20 and I'm here on behalf of the Bingo Interest Group. I 21 appreciate the opportunity to participate in a public 22 hearing. 23 At the outset, I would point out that I 24 participated in the workgroup on a couple of 25 occasions, and I've given a lot of thought to these 0029 1 rules. And I understand the predicament that the 2 Commission and staff are in, in that you receive 3 complaints from people and you're looking for what the 4 right thing to do is regarding those complaints. 5 Given the fact that there are 1,400 6 charities in five or 600 locations around the state, 7 and given all the issues that have been raised with me 8 about these rules, I'm concerned whether this is even 9 possible to do, and I recognize the difficulty of the 10 task 11 But one thing I would say is, if you're 12 going to establish a rule, then I think people in the 13 regulated community have a right to expect or, as a 14 practical matter, ought to expect that there's going 15 to be an enforcement of the rule. And in some cases, 16 the rules -- and I'll try to enumerate them as I go 17 through them -- in some cases, the only reason there 18 is a violation is because there is a house rule -- one 19 of the provisions of the house rules or the fair 20 conduct rule, and they will be violations of things 21 that don't appear to me to be clearly statutory 22 violations, at least on the plain language of the 23 statute, and in many cases, in my opinion, are not the 24 purview of the Commission to enforce. 25 Before I get into those kinds of 0030 1 things, though, I would like to call attention to what 2 I think are some drafting failures that are going to 3 lead to confusion in the regulated community. And I 4 don't have page and line numbers here, so I'm going to 5 do my best to direct you to exactly what I'm talking 6 about. My first example would be under 402.210(e)(3). 7 It says there that, "At a minimum, the house rules 8 shall contain the following information," And that is 9 "How players are expected to gain the caller's 10 attention when they bingo." 11 But then if you go over to 12 211(b)(10) -- let me find it here and I'll -- 13 (b)(10)(A)(ii), it says that the caller shall be 14 located so the players can gain the attention of the 15 caller when the players bingo. 16 It seems to me that you've gone a long 17 way there toward defining how players are expected to 18 gain the caller's attention when they bingo. And 19 they're expected -- the implication is, they're 20 expected to gain the caller's attention because the 21 caller is going to be located in a place where there's 22 proximity or line of sight or at least some aural 23 connection -- a-u-r-a-l connection -- to where they 24 can gain the caller's attention. So my comment would 25 be, don't tell them to set up a policy about how they 0031 1 expect to gain the caller's attention and then 2 visionally dictate what they're going to do by 3 (10)(A)(ii). 4 Just while I'm there, it's already been 5 stated by Mr. Fenoglio -- and let me say I subscribe 6 to all of his comments -- that there are going to be 7 times where the caller is not in proximity to the 8 player and the players are going to gain attention of 9 the caller by contacting a worker. If that's what 10 they're going to do, then there's no need for the 11 caller to be located so the player can gain the 12 caller's attention. 13 I'm thinking in particular that there 14 are partitioned areas with smoking and non-smoking 15 areas where it's probably not possible for a player to 16 directly gain the caller's attention without going 17 through a worker. And I think, given the many local 18 decisions that have been made out there by local 19 governments, you're going to have many more 20 proliferation of partitioned areas in the state. I 21 know there's a lot of them now. Most of them do it as 22 a courtesy to their bingo players. But you're going 23 to have smoking and non-smoking areas partitioned off 24 more and more, and so that's going to be a problem. I 25 think the rules need to make sure that they account 0032 1 for that. 2 Another area where it seems to me that 3 the rules tell the charity to put something in their 4 house rules and appear to give them discretion to do 5 that under 210 but then dictate the outcome under 211 6 would be under 210(e)(5). The rule states that the 7 house rules shall have a contingency plan for, among 8 other things, equipment failure. 9 But then under 211(b)(8)(A), it tells 10 the charity what they're going to do in the event that 11 a bingo equipment problem occurs during the game, 12 while the game is still in progress. So, really, the 13 only place they have any discretion is under 14 211(b)(8)(B) which is if the game -- what they're 15 going to do if there has been a failure and the 16 failure occurs or is discovered after the game has 17 been closed. 18 So on the one hand, it says come up 19 with a policy and, on the other hand, it dictates 20 about half the policy under 8(A), apparently. It says 21 each player is going to be allowed to replay the bingo 22 cards purchased, it's going to happen in the same 23 occasion, it's going to happen at no additional cost. 24 So there being only two categories of failure -- those 25 that occur while the game is in progress and those 0033 1 that occur after the game is closed -- at least 2 conceptually you've taken 50 percent of the discretion 3 away from the charity that seems to have been dictated 4 to them to exercise under 210. 5 Without going into the details, I would 6 say the same problem exists under 210(e)(5). The 7 reference to caller error is also addressed in 8 211(b)(9)(B) where it says, "If the game can be 9 reconstructed, the game continues by recalling the 10 game from the point of error." And I think that tells 11 you what's going to happen in the event a caller error 12 where it tells the -- says that the house rules have 13 to include information about that. So, anyway, I 14 think that's going to cause a lot of confusion out 15 there. 16 I think there's a level of informality 17 that occurs in the operation of a bingo hall like 18 there is in any business. And the rules are 19 attempting to inject a level of formality that is 20 probably not workable, the more I think about it. 21 Backing up to start at the beginning of 22 the rules at 402.210, my first observation would be 23 under Subsection (c), it says, "The operator on duty 24 is responsible for ensuring house rules are 25 consistently enforced." Then later on it requires and 0034 1 as part of the rules, I believe -- I'm looking for 2 it -- on (e)(8) -- that there be a refund policy. 3 Well, my guess is, the refund policy is going to be 4 handled by someone different on many occasions in the 5 bingo hall. It may be the hall manager; it may be the 6 cashier, the head cashier. There may be other people 7 who are going to be responsible for implementing that 8 policy. I understand you're looking for somebody to 9 hold accountable. I'm just not sure that the operator 10 on duty is the responsible person to hold accountable 11 when it comes to a refund policy, since making a 12 refund is not part of conducting bingo. 13 Under 210(d), "The house rules must be 14 posted in a conspicuous manner." I'm just hoping 15 that's not open to too much judgment. I would say 16 there are a number of things that are already required 17 to be posted in the bingo hall. We've about to cover 18 up the bingo hall with Commission-required postings. 19 In another part of the rule, it says 20 that the key elements of the house rules have to be 21 announced prior to the game. I would say if they're 22 going to be posted in a conspicuous manner, then don't 23 intrude into the operation of the game by requiring 24 that they be announced. Either post them or announce 25 them. To the extent we're going to have rules, I 0035 1 would think it would be better to post them than 2 announce them, because once the caller gets up there 3 and starts working, they're going to give minimal 4 information to the players and get started, because 5 the players want to get busy playing. That's why 6 they're there. 7 On 210(e)(2), I agree with Mr. Fenoglio 8 that the taxpayer number should not be required to be 9 posted. There's already a license on the wall. I 10 don't really think the organization's name or the 11 taxpayer number to be posted, because it's my 12 understanding, under a different rule, there's already 13 a requirement that the license be on the wall with the 14 taxpayer number, so that would be one thing that could 15 just be eliminated. 16 Under No. (e)(5), 210(e)(5), the 17 contingency plans, we're discussed a lot about how 18 those can be done. This is an area where there's a 19 level of formality here that seems to be required that 20 is not susceptible to easy compliance on an individual 21 basis. The reason is, there are different kinds of 22 inclement weather that produce different problems. 23 There are power outages that are five minutes long and 24 those that are an hour and a half long. 25 And, by the way, I thought this was 0036 1 kind of like hitting a fly with a sledge hammer here, 2 until I discovered from talking to people that power 3 outages do occur out there and they are a problem. So 4 I understand you're trying to respond to something. 5 But the organizations are going to 6 respond based on the given circumstances. There's 7 1,400 of them out there, and I don't know how many 8 circumstances we can imagine. But if we're going to 9 have them addressing those things, they're going to 10 be -- you know, my advice would be to address them by 11 saying, "Power outages will be handled on a case-by- 12 case basis." Then I don't know whether you're going 13 to come in and second-guess them on the basis of 14 inconsistency or you're going to come in and say, 15 "Well, that's no policy, because it says case-by- 16 case." I think those are things that are better left 17 to the day-to-day operation of the organizations. 18 On 210(e)(7), acceptable payment 19 options, I don't think that has any -- let me just 20 back up for a minute. In the preamble to this rule, 21 the second paragraph, it says specifically the new -- 22 this is in reference to 210 -- "Specifically, the new 23 rule requires the licensed authorized organization to 24 establish and adhere to its house rules for the fair 25 conduct of bingo. And the operator on duty to be 0037 1 responsible for ensuring the house rules are 2 consistently enforced." 3 So the purpose of the rules under 210 4 is to ensure the fair conduct of bingo. Determining 5 what an acceptable payment option is has nothing to do 6 with the fair conduct of bingo. Whether a bingo ball 7 is defective or not surely would, or at least I'm told 8 it would. But I don't see how acceptable payment 9 options have anything to do with the fair conduct of 10 bingo. 11 If normally they would take a check but 12 someone has written them a hot check before and they 13 don't take that person's check in the future, are they 14 enforcing the rules consistently or are they only 15 consistent if they then have a hot check policy in 16 connection with the acceptable payment options for 17 purposes of the pull-tabs? And you can see it just 18 drags you further and further into a level of detail 19 that seems to me to become problematic. 20 I would make the same comments about 21 210(e)(8), the refund policy. And unless I'm missing 22 something, it's none of y'all's business -- none of 23 the Commission's business -- what the refund policy is 24 with an organization. And that might vary, depending 25 on the customer. When I go to a Target store to 0038 1 return something, invariably I have to fill something 2 out that has my name and address and sometimes a 3 driver's license number on it. I used to be in 4 retailing, and I know that the retail chains look for 5 patterns of people returning things, because you can 6 shoplift and return things and get things back. 7 So different people are going to be 8 treated in a different manner. Now, I suppose that 9 they can address that if they want to engage in the 10 sophistication to address a refund policy that would 11 cover all alternatives. But I really don't think it's 12 any of the Commission's concern what the refund policy 13 is. 14 On 210(f), one of the things that you 15 might consider -- and I know this sounds harsh, but I 16 don't mean it tongue-in-cheek and I don't mean it 17 harsh -- but if there are notices of basic rules that 18 the Commission wants players to have and those rules 19 are going to be uniform across the state, then the 20 Commission should print the rules and either provide 21 them on the web for the charities to print out and 22 give to players or, better yet, at the Commission's 23 expense to print those off and distribute them out 24 there and not require somebody to go sit down and come 25 up with a long list of everything that players have to 0039 1 be notified of. 2 Phil, I appreciate the explanation on 3 (f), that the "If applicable" portion is put in there 4 to qualify the rest of that. I would say under Item 5 No. (4) there, that regarding the 18-year-olds, what 6 the statute says is, you may prohibit all individuals 7 younger than 18 from being in the bingo hall if you 8 post a notice. But what the rule says, that you have 9 to -- if it's applicable, that persons under age 18 10 are allowed on the premises. So I would suggest that 11 this notice goes exactly the opposite direction from 12 what the rule says. 13 MR. SANDERSON: Could you re-read 14 Paragraph (b) again, of the Act. 15 MR. BRESNEN: Yes. "A license holder 16 may prohibit all individuals younger than 18 years of 17 age or individuals of an age younger than 18 years of 18 age as determined by the license holder from entering 19 the licensed premises by posting a written notice to 20 that effect at the premises." So that's a statement 21 to me that says if I want to exclude everybody under 22 18, I post a notice. But what the rule says is, I 23 have to tell people that persons under 18 are allowed. 24 MR. SANDERSON: Well, does not the 25 second part after the are, do you not read that to 0040 1 indicate that if I want to set my age at 12 or 10 or 2 six -- 3 MR. BRESNEN: Are you talking about 4 under (b)? 5 MR. SANDERSON: Yes. 6 MR. BRESNEN: All right. Hold on just 7 a minute. 8 Yes. The point I am trying to make is 9 this: The statute says I can prohibit people by 10 posting a notice. By the way, the statute should be 11 sufficient -- right? -- if you come in. But what the 12 rule says is that I can post -- I have to tell them if 13 somebody under 18 is allowed. In other words, the 14 statute is stated in terms of a prohibition. Right? 15 MR. SANDERSON: I see your point. 16 MR. BRESNEN: Whereas, the rule says 17 that's when they're allowed. You know, are y'all 18 going to go in and sanction somebody on that? Are you 19 going to -- you have limited administrative resources. 20 And so it seems to me when you put it in rules here -- 21 you know, the statute, there's supposed to be a copy 22 of the statute at every location. The charities are 23 charged with understanding, having knowledge, like 24 every citizen, of what the laws are, and they go to 25 operator training; somebody does. So I would just let 0041 1 the statute speak for itself and not require it as a 2 matter of house rules if it's applicable. And then if 3 I were you, I would ignore it, because you don't have 4 the time and the money to go and enforce that anyway. 5 So anyway, that's beyond my comment on the rules. 6 On 210(f)(5), the minimum required 7 purchase has to be stated in the house rules. I don't 8 think that has anything to do with the fair conduct or 9 bingo, nor does No. (6). Let me say that I think if 10 you will -- this would -- if nothing else, the volume 11 of this rule would be substantially reduced if you 12 would eliminate everything that has to do with what I 13 would consider to be the normal business operations of 14 any entity from the rule and stick with things that 15 have to do with the integrity of the game. And I 16 think that's pretty consistent for most people in the 17 regulated community when I say that. 18 (g), I would just -- I'm sorry. 19 210(g), I would reiterate that if it's already posted 20 conspicuously, why do you have to announce these 21 things? 22 Moving to 211, (b)(1) seems to prohibit 23 a customer-specific response to an express concern. I 24 think if a deviation from house rules affects the 25 outcome of the game, that you have to have 0042 1 consistency. If it involves the business operation of 2 the organization, then I think they need to be able to 3 treat their customers with respect, and some people 4 deserve more respect than others. I know that sounds 5 bad, but it's true. If you've ever been in a retail 6 business, you know that some people deserve more 7 respect than others. 8 The new player that you're trying to 9 cultivate, somebody that you want to earn their trust 10 and integrate them into the social aspect of the game, 11 that player who is a pain in the behind and has been 12 forever and is looking for every opportunity to cheat, 13 you don't want to treat them with the same sort of 14 flexibility as you might somebody else. So I'll say 15 it again: Not everybody is due the same measure of 16 respect. 17 Under (b)(2)(A), this rule requires 18 that certain information be available to all players, 19 and that includes the games to be played. Many 20 organizations add what I refer to as optional games. 21 I think some people refer to them as night owl 22 games -- 23 FROM THE FLOOR: Bonus games. 24 MR. BRESNEN: -- bonus games. They are 25 things that occur typically at the end of a session 0043 1 when the regular schedule has been completed. And 2 they have more or less time available and more or less 3 money available to conduct those additional game. If 4 they've given out $2,300, maybe they're going to play 5 four rapid-fire $50 games to give out their old 6 $2,500. Or maybe they're going to play one $200 game, 7 whatever. 8 The circumstances do not lend 9 themselves to stating what all those games are going 10 to be, what game it is. What kind of game it is, is 11 going to depend on how much time. A blackout takes 12 longer than a four corners. See, I'm learning about 13 how to actually play bingo here. That's one good part 14 of this exercise. So I don't think that that rule is 15 fully capable of being complied with and still 16 operating in a commercially reasonable manner. 17 Looking at (b)(2)(B), the order in 18 which games will be played, I'm not sure that has 19 anything to do with the fair conduct of bingo. I 20 think typically organizations say, "Here is what we're 21 going to play and here is the order we're going to 22 play them in." It may frequently be dictated by the 23 way the products are sold. But I don't know why we 24 would want to straitjacket people and not let them 25 deviate from the order in which the games will be 0044 1 played. Each game is an individual game. As long as 2 it doesn't depend on the outcome of the previous game 3 or the next game doesn't have something to do with it, 4 let them play them the way they want to play them. 5 On item No. (C) there, the patterns 6 needed to win, it's been pointed out to me that the 7 pattern needed to win is already on a flashboard. 8 Does that suffice? Or must it be also in some printed 9 document? And if you already have the game to be 10 played under Item No. (2)(A), I'm not sure what (C) 11 adds to it. Why do you need both (A) and (C) if the 12 game to be played itself consists of the pattern to be 13 achieved to be won? 14 Moving down to Item No. (E), this goes 15 back to the optional game problem. There may be 16 prizes based on sales or attendance, but you don't 17 know it until you get to the end and you know you're 18 going to play some additional games. You know, y'all, 19 we can come up with some play-saver language and send 20 it to all the charities out there, I suppose, that 21 says, you know, he might play some extra games and 22 they might be based on sales or attendance. 23 But the bottom line is, there is a 24 significant amount of winging it that goes on in the 25 bingo hall, and there is nothing unfair about it. It 0045 1 has nothing to do with the fair conduct of the game, 2 and I don't really see why you need this as long as 3 the prize is announced as required by one of these 4 other rules in here. 5 "The entrance fee and the number of 6 cards associated with the entrance fee, if any," I'm 7 not seeing what that has anything to do with fairness. 8 Or "the price of each type of bingo card offered for 9 sale," I don't know that that has anything to do with 10 the fair conduct of bingo. And publishing that might 11 actually give the bingo hall down the street, who you 12 compete with, competitive information that you don't 13 particularly want them to have. 14 Item (G)(3) -- I'm sorry. Under 15 Item -- yes. Let me think here. Item No. (3), which 16 I guess is under -- 17 MR. SANDERSON: (b)? 18 MR. BRESNEN: -- (b), again, this has 19 the problem of the added games at the end. 20 Item No. (4)(A), this is on event 21 tickets. These games have been submitted to the 22 Commission and approved for play. So it seems to me 23 that as long as the game is played consistent with the 24 Commission's approval of the game, you should be good 25 to go. 0046 1 Now, making available the following 2 information to players prior to the play of a pull-tab 3 bingo event ticket game, if it's a new game, it's 4 going to have to be introduced to the players anyway. 5 If it's an ongoing game that's being conducted 6 according to its submission, then the players will be 7 familiar with the game. 8 So I suppose you could make available 9 the information by posting it or by having it in a 10 five-foot thick three-inch binder up on the counter, 11 but it would seem to me that there is a certain amount 12 of player knowledge that's available out there in the 13 community. And what you're doing, every time you 14 insert one of these things is, you're slowing down the 15 program. 16 There are some people who are anti- 17 gaming that want to slow down everything that happens 18 out there, but I don't think y'all are it. We're 19 trying to help the charities make money. And every 20 time you intrude in that process and it slows the game 21 down, then basically what you're doing is driving them 22 to a longer session. If they're playing a two-hour 23 session, they have to give more and more and more 24 information, all of a sudden people are going to have 25 to have a longer session. That's going to drive up 0047 1 their personnel costs and so forth. So some of these 2 things, I think, could just be eliminated. 3 I'm particularly concerned about 4 (b)(5), 211(b)(5), making sure all of the bingo cards 5 are present and not damaged and having them inspected 6 in the presence of one or more players. 7 I do not think a Las Vegas casino is 8 going to allow me to inspect their equipment, as it 9 would signal other players that a player with whom 10 they're competing is somehow involved with the 11 equipment that's determining the outcome of the game. 12 It has been said to me there are 13 already people who are concerned about so-called house 14 players, that there are allegations of house players, 15 people that win. So you get that one player that's in 16 the bingo hall early when the equipment is being 17 inspected, they're the one that gets to look at it and 18 they end up winning, then you're going to have a 19 complaint about the house player. 20 Secondly, there are places in the 21 state, there are bingo halls that have been in 22 operation for a long time where it's going to be 23 extremely difficult for players to get up and 24 identify -- and inspect the bingo balls or observe the 25 inspection of those and the bingo cards. 0048 1 No. 1, the bingo cards are behind the 2 counter in a secure area where the cashier is. No. 2, 3 I know of one bingo hall where it's in an old movie 4 theater, and the caller's deal is up on the -- it's up 5 on a platform above where the screen used to be, and 6 there is a spiritual staircase up there. Now, how a 7 handicapped player, are they going to be denied the 8 opportunity to inspect or participate in that 9 inspection? No way they're going to get up there. 10 You need to make provision for -- there 11 is another part of this rule that I'll say the same 12 thing -- where a camera can supply -- my understanding 13 is, this is common in the halls for there to be a 14 camera above the blower where people can virtually see 15 the operation of the game. 16 I don't think anybody is opposed to 17 making sure that all the balls and cards are -- 18 everything is there that's supposed to be there and 19 they're in working order and all of that. But having 20 players and making provision for players to inspect 21 them it seems to me is way, way overreaching. 22 Item No. (b)(6), I think the problem 23 with the complete sets, replacing them -- basically 24 what you're going to do, if you say you have to 25 replace the whole set of balls, you're driving the 0049 1 costs up. If they can replace one ball, it's 2 obviously cheaper for the charity than using a whole 3 new set of balls. Many of them may do it anyway, but 4 that should be at their discretion, based on their 5 cost concerns. 6 Item No. (8)(A) -- this is 7 211(b)(8)(A). There's a couple of places here in 8 these rules -- and I'll try to skip the other ones, 9 other than just to mention them on the way by -- where 10 something is required to be done in the same session. 11 Well, it may not be able to be redone in the same 12 session. So the rules ought to allow the conductor 13 the option to either replay it or refund the money. 14 If you run up against the end of your 15 playing time and you're required to repeat that, then 16 you're either going to go outside your playing time 17 and get whacked for that or you're not going to 18 complete it and get whacked for that. Or if you stop 19 and complete it, then you're going to get knocked off 20 the rest of your schedule that you've been required to 21 make available to everybody, and you're going to get 22 whacked for that. So it seems to me you're setting up 23 a situation where somebody is going to get whacked 24 pretty much whatever they do -- not a good idea. 25 On (b)(9)(C), that's another one of 0050 1 those that falls under that same category. 2 Okay. (b)(10)(A)(i), "observe the 3 drawing of the ball from the bingo receptacle," that's 4 the problem that I was referring to, about if you have 5 a camera above the blower where it can be observed. 6 That has nothing to do with where the caller is 7 located such that it does allow the players to be able 8 to see the drawing of the ball. 9 And, by the way, even if somebody is 10 sitting like way back in the room, it may be such that 11 they could walk up there and stand and watch the ball 12 coming out of the receptacle. But are they going to 13 do it? They would have to take their bingo cards or 14 the card-minder with them. It's impractical. In 15 other words, a caller might be located in compliance 16 with this rule, but nobody can go up there and watch 17 the balls coming out of the thing, unless they're all 18 sitting right up there with him. So that needs work. 19 I have already talked about the next 20 one. I'll just skip that one. 21 Notice that under -- man, I'm losing 22 track of my numbers here. It's hard to follow. 9 -- 23 I'm sorry. 10 -- it would be (10)(J), 211(b)(10)(J), 24 that all of these communication devices that are 25 prohibited from use with communicating with the caller 0051 1 are electronic. As the rule is, it doesn't seem to 2 prohibit anybody from just walking up and talking to 3 the caller or communicating orally with the caller. I 4 might be missing something. 5 MR. SANDERSON: I believe that might be 6 what (B) -- or what No. (11)(B), right below that, 7 talks about the worker and the caller -- 8 MR. FENOGLIO: Right. 9 MR. SANDERSON: -- or Mr. Fenoglio 10 added a comment to the caller. 11 MR. BRESNEN: Got you. The other thing 12 that occurs to me, as soon as you prohibit any kind of 13 communication with the caller, as I understand it, 14 with the event games, and particularly the horse race 15 game that we saw the other day, that there is a 16 certain amount of cheering that goes on, you know, 17 where people are calling out, you know, for their 18 number, to get their horsey down the track, so I guess 19 you'll have to make provision for the horsey problem. 20 I'm under (11) now, (b)(11)(a). I 21 won't go too far into this, except to say that I have 22 no idea what "have a presence in each playing area" 23 means. And I think you're going to get uneven 24 enforcement at best with that. 25 I also think that if it's rigidly 0052 1 enforced, that the Commission would in effect be 2 driving the staffing decisions of the charities. 3 You've got an auditor that goes in and says, "Part of 4 what we're trying to do, after the internal audit and 5 everything, is work on some consistency in a statewide 6 even-handedness." But I think you're setting the 7 auditors up and yourselves up for an inconsistency 8 when you put things like that down and nobody really 9 knows what it means. 10 In Midland they go in and say, "You 11 know, I don't think you have enough people here" -- 12 and I quote -- "to have a presence in each playing 13 area," then the person in Midland is under the gun. 14 No. 1, I don't know what you're going to bring for 15 proof on that, and I don't know what objective basis 16 an ALJ would rule on it on. 17 So you may be in the business of just 18 jawboning it. But if you are, then what you're doing 19 is telling them, "You don't have enough employees in 20 here," which is the same as telling them, "Your 21 expenses are not high enough." And then you're 22 working against the objective of generating more 23 revenue for the charities. So I think that has all 24 kinds of enforcement problems, not to mention fiscal 25 implication for the charities. 0053 1 Under (11)(B) it's already been 2 discussed about new players sometimes need help. 3 Under (11)(C), you might want to 4 consider adding electronics in the list of things. It 5 says that -- right now it says the worker shall "not 6 require anything of value from players, other than 7 payment, for bingo cards, instant tickets, and 8 supplies." You might want to throw electronics in 9 there. It seems incomplete. 10 No. (12), 211(b)(12), "Equal 11 opportunity for all players to play and win." 12 Although it may be negligible, I think the more cards 13 you buy or the more pull-tabs you buy, the greater 14 your opportunity to win. So you may need a concept in 15 there -- obviously, I think the idea is: Don't cheat. 16 Don't put your thumb on the sale. Don't do anything 17 nefarious. So you might want to add the concept that 18 all players similarly situated have an equal 19 opportunity to play and win. 20 Under Item No. (c) there, 211(c), if 21 that's a rule, if that's just a rule of the 22 Commission, then we don't need them in any house 23 rules. And I'm not really sure that this is the fair 24 conduct of bingo. I'm not really sure what that has 25 to do with fairness or not. If that's what the 0054 1 Lottery Commission wants, then there might be a more 2 direct way to get there. 3 Okay. Then I'll skip down to 709 and 4 I'll be done. And I would just repeat briefly the 5 comment that Mr. Fenoglio made. The way it's drafted, 6 it looks like you could be penalized for a 7 determination letter, even though we all know the 8 process has a lot more to run after that 9 And thank you for your time. 10 MS. JOSEPH: Thank you, Mr. Bresnen. 11 I believe this would be a good time to 12 take a break. Let's return at 11:30. 13 (Off the record: 11:21 a.m. to 11:35 14 a.m.) 15 MS. JOSEPH: All right. I would like 16 to call the hearing back to order. 17 David Heinlein, would you like to offer 18 some comments? 19 COMMENTS ON BEHALF OF 20 CHARITIES THAT ARE BINGO CONDUCTORS 21 MR. HEINLEIN: Yes, ma'am. 22 For the record, I'm David Heinlein, and 23 I represent charities that are bingo conductors, and I 24 do their bookkeeping for them. 25 I appreciate the comments that have 0055 1 been made so far by the two Steves. They're kind of a 2 hard act to follow, you know. They've offered a lot 3 of testimony. And I don't want to duplicate 4 everything that they have said, but I have seen the 5 importance of a lot of the detail that they've been 6 talking about. And I discovered that at the last 7 Commission meeting when I saw some of those rules 8 being talked about and how just a little word, 9 "shall," makes such a big difference, you know. And I 10 see so much stuff here that I think we still have some 11 work to do to be sure that we've not got some words 12 like that, that would cause some problems. 13 Let me just go to some of the areas 14 that we were mostly concerned about in our games. And 15 they've covered all of these points that I had an 16 issue on, but I wanted to qualify something. Under 17 the 211 item -- I've got my pages out of sequence. I 18 do, and that's fine. It's Item (6) under -- oh, 19 shoot! 20 MR. SANDERSON: Is this the bingo 21 balls? 22 MR. HEINLEIN: Yes, replacement of 23 bingo balls or bingo cards. And, by the way, that 24 bingo cards caused some confusion. I mean, I think 25 the public out there may be -- many of the conductors 0056 1 may have a problem, too, because we have hard cards at 2 some of these small halls, and then we have paper 3 cards. And I don't know which we're talking about all 4 the time. One time I thought one of the rules had a 5 reference maybe to just the bingo cards and that's why 6 it would apply. But if it was paper, I don't see how 7 it could apply, like you couldn't inspect all of the 8 paper that's being sold during that occasion. 9 MS. JOSEPH: Just to clarify, I believe 10 you're going to talk about 211(b)(6)? 11 MR. HEINLEIN: (6) -- 12 MS. JOSEPH: Okay. 13 MR. HEINLEIN: -- yes. So in that, if 14 we're talking about replacement of bingo balls or 15 bingo cards shall be replaced in complete sets, that 16 is an item that -- I've looked at the expenses of 17 those complete sets of balls, and the ones that I've 18 looked at were $100 to $125. I've heard $80 to $150. 19 At any rate, that is an expensive -- a 20 complete set is expensive and would drive up the cost 21 if we had to replace the complete set. If you have a 22 single ball that has been damaged, it's not 23 functioning, I think it's easy to replace that single 24 ball from a set that you may have had on hand and that 25 you could pull that ball out and put that into play 0057 1 rather than have to replace the whole set. I don't 2 think we need to increase their costs by doing that. 3 (8)(A), if a problem is discovered with 4 the bingo balls, equipment or operation while the game 5 is still in progress, the game is voided and must be 6 replayed during the same occasion at no additional 7 cost to the players. I think there's just plenty of 8 opportunities -- we have a lot of different things 9 that happen during a bingo occasion and a particular 10 game. It could be a pause to correct but could be 11 corrected and the game would not need to be replayed. 12 I think that needs to be really looked hard at, 13 because I don't think we need to void every game that 14 has some kind of a problem that has come up. I 15 believe many of those problems -- most of those 16 problems can be quickly taken care of and you would 17 not need to replay the game. 18 And then if you were to have to replay 19 the game, it says, "Each player shall be allowed to 20 replay the bingo cards previously purchased." How 21 could you replay something that you have already 22 daubed all over? I don't think you could do that. So 23 I think that one is certainly one that needs to have 24 some work on. 25 Under (10)(B), "be the only one to 0058 1 handle the bingo balls during each bingo game," we 2 very often have to hire someone new to be a caller. 3 And while you may have given them time and opportunity 4 to participate in watching a veteran caller call, it's 5 not the same thing as actually getting up there and 6 doing it yourself. So we have found it to be very 7 helpful for a trainee to sit with a veteran caller on 8 the caller stand and practice being able to handle the 9 balls. And I think we need to be able to have some 10 language in here that would allow for the training of 11 a new caller, without it being in violation of this. 12 Under (J) on that same rule, (10)(J), 13 not, except for emergency situations, use cell phones, 14 personal digital assistance. And I think Mr. Bresnen 15 pointed out, it appears that that didn't prohibit 16 verbal or oral communication. There's all kinds of 17 things, I think, that happen at bingo halls to cause a 18 need for communication with the caller. And I don't 19 know if it's prohibitive to have any of this digital 20 type assistance in all cases, but I think there has to 21 be some exceptions. And maybe it's not just an 22 emergency but it's an unusual circumstance that would 23 require the use of some kind of electronic 24 communication to the caller. 25 On the corrective action, I agreed with 0059 1 Mr. Fenoglio's comments on that, certainly at the end 2 to add the words "notice of" each of those 3 requirements. It would be very good to do that. 4 And Mr. Bresnen and Mr. Fenoglio's 5 comments, I do concur with all of their comments, and 6 I'll let their comments stand. 7 I will be glad to answer any questions 8 if you have any. 9 MS. JOSEPH: I don't believe we have 10 any. Thank you, Mr. Heinlein. 11 Sharon Ives. 12 COMMENTS ON BEHALF OF FORT WORTH BOOKKEEPING 13 MS. IVES: Good morning. I was making 14 sure it was still morning, afternoon. My name is 15 Sharon Ives, Fort Worth Bookkeeping. 16 I'm going to try to go in order. 17 Basically both the Steves' testimony covers everything 18 that I was going to testify to. Under House Rule 19 402.210(d), those are currently posted in the bingo 20 halls, most of the bingo halls, either on posterboard 21 or on the backs of their current game plans or 22 programs. 23 On the same rule, (e)(2), delete the 24 taxpayer number. 25 (e)(5), the contingency plan, I believe 0060 1 those should be left up to the individual bingo halls 2 on who would write those -- either the operator, the 3 manager, et cetera 4 (e)(8), refund policy, that -- if you 5 want to flip over to 402.211, (8)(A), the middle of 6 the paragraph where it says "at no additional cost to 7 the players," there will be incidents where you would 8 need to give a refund to a customer. There will also 9 be times when you would not give a refund to a 10 customer. I'll talk more on that here in just a 11 minute. 12 On 402.211, fair conduct, (b)(2)(A), 13 "the games to be played," that's on the program or the 14 current game schedule. Same thing with (B). On (C), 15 "the patterns needed to win," why couldn't that be on 16 the flashboard, which the majority of them already 17 are? 18 On (D), that's currently on the game 19 schedule or your program, whichever you call it. 20 On (E), a lot of the bingo halls 21 currently play either the mini-bingos or the night owl 22 bingos. And I believe both the Steves have already 23 touched bases on that. 24 And on (G), the price of each bingo 25 type. Currently most of the bingo halls already have 0061 1 that posted in the cashier's booth. 2 On No. (5), the inspection of the bingo 3 halls and bingo cards, the inspection must be done by 4 a registered bingo worker in the presence of one or 5 more players, I did have the same concerns as both of 6 the Steves on that one. There is one particular bingo 7 hall in Dallas that the equipment is located on a 8 second floor with a spiral staircase, and I can just 9 see an accident waiting to happen. 10 No. (6), the bingo balls or the bingo 11 cards shall be replaced in complete sets. If I'm 12 reading that correctly, when you open your case of 13 bingo sets, they're cellophaned, which you open that 14 cellophane. If one of -- the glue or whatever is 15 stuck to the first set, why couldn't you just take 16 that very first set and note it on your inventory, 17 keep the set for audit instead of replacing the whole 18 set of sets? I just want to make sure I was reading 19 that correctly 20 On No. (8)(A), what if you are 21 conducting a game that is a blackout or a cover all 22 and it takes 20 minutes? If you are required to 23 replay that same game during that same session, I'm 24 just concerned that that could throw the time 25 allotment away from your licensed playing times. 0062 1 (10), on the same rule, (10)(D), that 2 also could create an overage on your allotted amount 3 of time. 4 MR. SANDERSON: Excuse me, Sharon. 5 MS. IVES: Yes? 6 MR. SANDERSON: You said on (10)(D), 7 announcing the prize? 8 MS. IVES: Yes. Prior to the end of 9 the game, if you are playing mini-bingo -- say you 10 conducted your session, you have played how many ever 11 games is on your game schedule. You've got 10 or 15 12 minutes left on your licensed playing time, so you're 13 going to utilize that time in order to play mini- 14 bingos, minis are pretty much split and take. You 15 will not know how many cards were sold to know what 16 the prize is going to be. If you sell 100 cards, then 17 the prize will be $50. You won't know how many the 18 winners are, obviously, until after the bingo game is 19 over in order for them to announce the amount of the 20 prize. 21 On (11)(B), bingo worker requirements, 22 not communicate verbally or in any other manner. What 23 if I'm a new customer and I'm playing a card-minder, I 24 inputted the incorrect number into my computer, but I 25 don't know how to void that number out. I would have 0063 1 to flag down an usher in order to correct that for me, 2 to get me back on to the game. The way this is 3 written, they will not be able to help me with that. 4 Because, let's face it, I only play bingo about four 5 times a year so I'm definitely one of those new 6 customers. 7 The same thing on No. -- I'm sorry -- 8 letter (C), adding card-minders. 9 (13), establishment of procedures to 10 address disputes, I believe that's already in the 11 administrative rules. Rule No. 402.200(f). And in 12 that rule, in the administrative rules, it was saying 13 that, you know, that's the one that you had to post a 14 sign in a conspicuous place, have it displayed during 15 all bingo occasions, indicating the name of the 16 operator in charge. The letters on the sign shall not 17 be more than an inch tall. The sign shall inform the 18 players at that location that they should direct any 19 questions or complaints regarding the conduct of the 20 bingo occasion to the operator listed on the sign. I 21 mean, the way I read it, it's pretty much the same. 22 And I believe that was it. 23 (Off-the-record discussion between 24 Mr. Bresnen and Ms. Ives) 25 MS. IVES: The current rule does not 0064 1 specify if this required information could be 2 printed -- take for instance on the back of the 3 current game plan -- or the game schedule that is 4 on -- usually located on the counter at the cashier's 5 booth when you go up to purchase your sets or your 6 tabs. 7 MR. SANDERSON: Are you talking about 8 the house rule or the conduct rule? 9 MS. IVES: That would be the house 10 rule. 11 Correct? 12 MR. BRESNEN: (Nods head) 13 MS. IVES: I couldn't find anywhere in 14 there that that would be a possibility. 15 MR. SANDERSON: Okay. 16 MS. IVES: Anything further? 17 MS. JOSEPH: No, ma'am. 18 Any questions -- 19 MS. IVES: I don't believe so. 20 MS. JOSEPH: -- not yet addressed? 21 Thank you. 22 Kelly Marsh. Would you like to offer 23 comments? 24 MS. MARSH: Not at this time. 25 MS. JOSEPH: Not at this time? All 0065 1 right. Thank you. 2 And I see you did mark on here you did 3 not wish to testify. All right. Thank you -- 4 Earl Silver? 5 COMMENTS ON BEHALF OF TEJAS BINGO AND PALACE BINGO 6 MR. SILVER: Good morning -- still. My 7 name is Earl Silver, representing Tejas Bingo and 8 Palace Bingo in Conroe and Victoria. 9 First of all, I would like to thank 10 everybody for their time and effort to get us to this 11 stage, because I know it's labor-intensive. There's 12 just a few comments that I do have. 13 On 402.210(d), that they must be posted 14 in a conspicuous manner, it wouldn't be very difficult 15 to post the house rules, which we do have most of 16 these posted. However, when you start adding a 17 contingency plan for inclement weather, like what 18 Mr. Fenoglio was elaborating on -- storms, ice; we've 19 dealt with hurricanes, tropical storms in Victoria, 20 ice in Conroe for several days -- then you have to 21 have a contingency plan for power outages, then 22 equipment failure and then caller error and other 23 emergencies, and then you have to define those other 24 emergencies that need to be posted, we're going to get 25 into almost a 10-by-10 foot piece of wall space 0066 1 posting all of these house rules. 2 Mr. Bresnen stated we either need to 3 post it or state it. We should need to clarify what 4 should be posted, what should be stated or announced, 5 what should just be in the Bingo Enabling Act and what 6 should just -- under not house rules, because some of 7 these tend to be a little bit broad-sweeping and could 8 add a lot of text. 9 There was one rule in here -- well, one 10 portion that I did not see in here that I thought 11 could be incorporated. One is under (e) -- I'm 12 sorry -- No. (f)(1) about the last number called must 13 be on a winning card. And I know, Mr. Sanderson, 14 you've addressed "if applicable." It may not be under 15 the "if applicable" section because it may need to be 16 elaborated on, because there are some halls that do 17 certain procedures, are situations called sleeping a 18 bingo, which means if you need B5 and B5 is called and 19 you're sitting here talking or you're in the restroom 20 or you're at the deli or wherever and you're not by 21 your cards for some strange reason and then B9 is 22 called and eight people bingo, well, then what 23 happens? 24 Some halls split it nine ways. Some 25 halls split it the eight ways and the other person is 0067 1 out of luck. That may need to be addressed on here. 2 I don't know how; I don't know where. It's just 3 something that, since we're talking about the last 4 number being called, which seems like a hard and fast 5 rule, if it's applicable. And most people, if your 6 number is called, you're going to holler. And 7 definitely I would holler. If I played bingo and my 8 number was called, I would be right there on it, but 9 some people just do other things. 10 And then the contingency plan and 11 procedures on (e)(5) and (6), that just needs to be on 12 a case-by-case basis, which was stated by everyone 13 else before me, because that's how we operate. Like I 14 said, in Conroe, we've had ice that has closed the 15 hall for four, five, six sessions. Victoria, we had a 16 hurricane several year ago, go up through Corpus and 17 through Victoria and tore up some stuff on the 18 building where we had to close. That just needs to be 19 on a case-by-case. 20 On (e)(4), how the prizes should be 21 split when there are multiple winners in a game, I 22 just don't feel that needs to be announced. That can 23 be on -- that should be posted. I mean, that's a good 24 thing to have and people do need to know that. It's 25 just it should be on the posting section. 0068 1 And also on (e)(2), the licensed 2 authorized organization's name and taxpayer number, 3 there has been a lot of testimony regarding that. Can 4 the license board -- we already have to have that 5 posted already. Can that suffice as being on its own 6 instead of in a house rule? 7 Now, when we start bingo, our callers 8 do announce that, who they're playing for, because we 9 love to promote our charities. We have flyers on the 10 table about what charity you're playing for that day, 11 and their mission statement, because we like to know 12 where -- we like to tell the customers where their 13 money is going, what charity it's helping, how they're 14 communicating or contributing back into the community. 15 So, I mean, that's pretty important. But I don't 16 believe that needs to be listed in a house rule 17 specifically and posted, since it's already there on 18 the license board and times. 19 Going to 402.211, on (b)(3), I mean, 20 that's been stated several times. In our halls, we 21 don't play mini-games and end games. We do more event 22 tabs and event tickets. But in my son's school, the 23 last -- they play a game -- their payouts are only 24 $1,600. But if they have a hundred people in there 25 for the church and they decide to play another game, 0069 1 well, this whole rule they will be in violation of, 2 because they have to announce to the players any 3 changes or information required by the paragraph in 4 the subsection before the first game of bingo 5 occasion. Well, that goes back into if the prize 6 payout is based on sales or attendance. So they would 7 be in violation of this, because they decided to try 8 to get extra money from the people, maybe sell another 9 game and try to help the school. 10 And on (b)(4), maybe a clarification of 11 availability or a definition, availability in print or 12 availability just in knowledge that someone has, 13 because we have a person who manages our pull-tab 14 program. They may know how the game is to be played. 15 Now, how the game is to be played and the how the 16 winners are to be determined, that's part of making 17 money for your charities. Our floor runners are 18 trained to tell customers how the games are going to 19 be played and how they're going to win, what to look 20 for, what to not look for, because that's how people 21 play the games 22 If you are in Vegas and walk up to a 23 slot machine and don't know how to play it, you're not 24 going to play, you're not going to put your money in. 25 You want to know what to look for and know how to win. 0070 1 In order to win, it generate excitement. So that's 2 just part of making money, and maybe clarify the 3 availability, because you don't want a binder on a 4 desk that's a 4-inch D-ring binder that has every game 5 you play and how to play it. Nobody is going to look 6 through that. You want to be able to have the 7 availability of the knowledge of your staff to tell 8 the customers and train the customers. So maybe 9 clarification of the word "availability." 10 The inspection of the bingo balls on 11 Section (5), I don't necessarily agree with having the 12 bingo cards or bingo paper in there, because of 13 reasons stated by everyone else. But I do think it's 14 important to have some type of inspection of the bingo 15 balls so that the customers can know that it's being 16 fair, that all the balls are there, there is no -- 17 there's not two B4's, there's just one B4. It just 18 maintains the integrity of the game, and we just like 19 to stay aboveboard so that the customers know that all 20 the balls are there, they can see the balls come out 21 of the blower, see them on the monitors and everything 22 like that. With the cards, it could be a little 23 difficult, because what was stated earlier, they're in 24 different locations and locked up how they're supposed 25 to be. 0071 1 On No. (6), replacement of the bingo 2 balls and bingo cards in complete sets, I do have an 3 issue with that. We like to leave it at the caller's 4 discretion, because a box of balls costs about $100, 5 $125, anywhere from $70 to $100 or $150. But if you 6 have a $100 box of balls and B3 gets broken, that ball 7 is about $1.33. 8 If you buy a $100 VCR and the belt 9 breaks, are you going to replace the whole VCR? No. 10 You're going to buy a new belt. It's almost the same 11 situation. You don't want to kill the whole thing. 12 It's like buying a car and the tire goes flat. You're 13 not going to change the whole thing just because one 14 component of it is broken and can be replaced easily. 15 If it's something that's more difficult 16 to replace, then that would have to be done on some 17 type of case-by-case basis. On the bingo card part of 18 that same section, when it says damaged or otherwise 19 compromised, when is it damaged? Does it have to be 20 damaged when you open the box? Or what if a customer 21 spills paper on it -- or spills coffee all over their 22 paper and their whole paper pack is gone? So should 23 we have to pull all that paper back and replenish it 24 all in a complete set? It just seems to be a little 25 bit more extreme than what needs to be stated 0072 1 On (8), moving down to (8)(A), that's 2 been covered extensively about if you're late in the 3 game and the cards are already marked and something 4 happens, do you have to reissue new paper? That can 5 be reworded a little bit differently. 6 That one is covered. 7 Now, moving to (10)(H), this is kind of 8 a weird situation that we've run across in our hall in 9 Conroe. When people win, for some reason they don't 10 like anybody to know how much they win, because they 11 may have family members in there or it's just real, 12 real squirrely how bingo players are. They may have a 13 sister sitting across the room that she may owe her 14 money. And you win a $500 pot or split it four ways, 15 well, nobody wants to be able to calculate that and 16 say, "Oh, well, she can give me half of that and we're 17 even." 18 I wouldn't say announce the total 19 amount of prize monies available -- oh, well, you can 20 announce it for the game but wouldn't break it down 21 for like per winner or anything like that. They can 22 announce that there were 10 winners of the game and 23 everybody knows it was a $750 game or a $200 game. 24 Everybody knows that because that's already on their 25 schedules and it's on the flashboards and everything. 0073 1 I just don't think that needs to be elaborated upon. 2 Now, we do make the information 3 available. When they do the payouts, that information 4 is posted if somebody wants to go up and look at it. 5 But I just don't think it needs to be announced, 6 because just of the situations in bingo halls with 7 relatives, it just gets crazy sometimes. 8 Still staying with (10)(J), "not, 9 except for any emergency situations..." Well, there's 10 a lot of emergency situations which you need to 11 communicate with people. But what if the caller needs 12 to communicate with the floor runners? What if the 13 floor runners need to communicate with the caller? I 14 mean, they can walk up and do it. But with 15 technology, the way it's advanced, if you have a 16 19,500 square foot hall, it's kind of difficult to 17 walk from one area to the other when you can just use 18 a two-way Motorola communication device or something 19 like that to say something to the caller. 20 Or if you're in a pull-tab session of a 21 hall and the caller is doing something and the 22 pull-tab manager notices something, can they still use 23 their microphone and say something to the caller? I 24 mean, this would prohibit that from any communication. 25 And there needs to be communication in the staff. I 0074 1 mean, the caller is part of the staff. I mean, they 2 need to be communicating about different situations. 3 On (11)(A), it does become labor- -- it 4 will become labor-intensive if you have a bingo worker 5 have a presence in each playing area while a bingo 6 game is in progress. In Victoria, they passed a 7 non-smoking ordinance, so the bingo hall is 8 non-smoking. We still have a non-smoking room. We 9 still have three customers that love the non-smoking 10 room. So if two of them don't show up and there's one 11 customer in there, are we supposed to allocate one 12 floor runner to stay in that room with them at all 13 times? 14 We also have a patio that's on the 15 premises. If there's one person out there, happen to 16 be on the patio, do we need another person on that 17 patio? I just feel that needs to be reworded some 18 sort or done something with. There's a lot smarter 19 people in here that can reword it a whole lot better 20 than I can. 21 Now, on (d) of that same rule, which is 22 402.211, "All pull-tab . . . event tickets must be 23 sold prior to the occurrence of the event." 24 Mr. Fenoglio covered the word "occurrence." I tend to 25 have an issue with the word "all." What if you can't 0075 1 sell them all? What if you're working so hard to get 2 the charities' money and you have a box of 250 tabs or 3 event tickets and you only sell 200? What happens? 4 What do you do? "Oh, well, we can't play. The 5 charities give back all the money." 6 I don't think that's right because, I 7 mean, if you can't sell them, then what? It may need 8 to be expanded upon or maybe verbiage to the effect 9 that you can sell up to a winner or something to that 10 effect. But I don't like the word "all" and then 11 "prior" in that same sentence, because it's more 12 restrictive than anything else, because then you have 13 to sit there and just beg money from people: 14 "Well, come on. We've only got 10 15 tickets left," instead of playing the game when you've 16 only got five minutes left in your licensed time, 17 instead of playing the game and just letting the 18 charities eat that $10 or $5 or $20 or even $100, just 19 to get more money out and just maintain the integrity 20 of the game, just play it and be done with it and the 21 charities just lose that little bit of money, but they 22 may make a little bit more money on the box. 23 And I've had discussions on 402.709. 24 And it's been explained to me several times, and I 25 just still do not understand one thing, and I just 0076 1 have an exception with one word on the whole rule, 2 which is going to be on (c)(3), and it's the word 3 "and." I would like to make it be an "or" because 4 whenever I see the word "and," and just seems very 5 inclusive. 6 I see "may," "The licensee may be 7 subject to administrative disciplinary actions such as 8 license revocation, license suspension, administrative 9 penalty and more frequent inspections and compliance 10 audits." 11 If my son gets in trouble -- he's 10 12 years old -- and he does something horrendous -- God 13 forbid -- I will tell him, "You're going to be 14 grounded, you're going to have all your electronics 15 taken away, and write me 500 lines," he's going to go 16 ballistic. If I say, "You're going to be grounded, 17 have all your electronics taken away, or write me 500 18 lines," that's not as bad. It leaves an option. 19 To me, this doesn't sound like an 20 option. It sound like if corrective action isn't 21 taken, my license is gone and suspended and 22 penalized -- and I have administrative penalty, and 23 I'm going to be inspected and audited more. 24 It's been explained to me several times 25 with the word "or" but "or" is not in this sentence or 0077 1 in this whole paragraph. The word "and" is, and it 2 just seems more inclusive and defining, like this is 3 what's going to happen -- no deviation. 4 That's it. Any questions? 5 MS. JOSEPH: I don't believe so. Thank 6 you, Mr. Silver. 7 MR. SILVER: Thank you. 8 MS. JOSEPH: Don Webb? 9 MR. WEBB: I think that obviously 10 everything has been covered that I was going to talk 11 about, so -- more than once it's been covered. So I 12 agree with everything that they have said with both 13 Steves. 14 MS. JOSEPH: All right. Thank you, 15 Mr. Webb. 16 Velma Markham? 17 MS. MARKHAM: I agree with everything 18 that's been said. 19 MS. JOSEPH: All right. Thank you, 20 Ms. Markham. 21 Denise Hutchings? 22 MR. FENOGLIO: I believe she stepped 23 out. 24 MS. JOSEPH: Okay. I'll come back to 25 her. 0078 1 MS. HUTCHINGS: No, I'm not. 2 MS. JOSEPH: Okay. You do not -- 3 MS. HUTCHINGS: No, I'm not going to 4 testify. But, yes, I agree with what's been said. 5 MS. JOSEPH: All right. Thank you. 6 Charles Hutchings? 7 MR. BRESNEN: He stepped out. I'll get 8 him. 9 MS. JOSEPH: I'll come back to 10 Mr. Hutchings. 11 Mark Clark? 12 COMMENTS ON BEHALF OF SAD SACK UNIT 96 13 MR. CLARK: I'm Mark Clark. I'm 14 representing Sad Sack Unit 96. 15 Everything has pretty well been hashed 16 and re-hashed, so I won't prolong it. I do concur 17 with everything that has been said this morning. 18 However, it seems to me like we're trying to get one 19 set of rules to cover all situations. 20 About 20 years ago, I was at a bingo 21 session in Richardson, Texas, had 95-mile-an-hour 22 straight winds. The front of the bulling was all 23 glass. It blew all the glass in, covered everybody on 24 the first 20 tables with glass. The bingo cards were 25 blown all over the building. A man has a heart 0079 1 attack, and we're trying to keep him alive. 2 You cannot judge that situation by the 3 same set of rules as an ice storm, a 20-minute power 4 outage or a two-hour power outage. It needs to be 5 taken on a case-by-case basis. 6 If there's not anything else, that's 7 really about all I have to say. 8 MS. JOSEPH: Thank you very much, 9 Mr. Clark. 10 MR. CLARK: Thank you. 11 MS. JOSEPH: Mr. Hutchings, would you 12 like to offer any comments? 13 MR. HUTCHINGS: Yes, please. 14 COMMENTS ON BEHALF OF AMERICAN VETERANS POST 52 15 MR. HUTCHINGS: Good morning. My name 16 is Charles Hutchings. 17 I believe most of the things have been 18 covered here. I don't think we need to read them down 19 line-by-line again, except for the one that's on the 20 inclement weather and what your response should be. 21 That should just be totally stricken. There is no way 22 to write a rule to cover all the things that could 23 happen and how they could happen. So you're just 24 getting yourself in a box when you try to do that. 25 Just take that one out, and I believe it will further 0080 1 things down the road. 2 Thank you very much. 3 MS. JOSEPH: Thank you, Mr. Hutchings. 4 Jimmy Davis Pruitt? 5 (Multiple people talking) 6 MR. SANDERSON: Now we all know his 7 real name. 8 (Laughter) 9 MR. PRUITT: A/K/A. 10 MS. JOSEPH: What are you usually known 11 as, Mr. Pruitt? 12 MR. PRUITT: J. D. 13 MS. JOSEPH: J. D. Okay. 14 (Laughter) 15 COMMENTS ON BEHALF OF YOUTH BENEFIT, INC. 16 MR. PRUITT: And for the record, J. D. 17 Pruitt. I'm representing about 30 charities, and I 18 help supervise and manage about five bingo halls. 19 I agree with most of what -- or, 20 really, all of what's already been said. I do want to 21 hit a couple of points. 22 Like I say, on 210(e)(2), I don't think 23 we need the taxpayer ID number. We've done that in 24 the past. It doesn't prove anything. We do announce 25 the organization's name. But I'll guarantee you, if 0081 1 you go up to 10 players, five minutes into the 2 session, and they couldn't -- if one could tell you 3 who was playing, it would shock me. 4 (3), I think we just need to state that 5 the bingo player needs to get the caller's attention 6 or bingo worker's attention, whatever the rule is in 7 your hall -- not how -- because I don't care if they 8 bang on the table with their fist, as long as they get 9 the caller's attention to stop the game. We have 10 people who have throat cancer who cannot call. They 11 may ring the cowbell. 12 The next thing, I've got to agree on 13 Item (5), the contingency plan. I've been doing this 14 a long time, and I could probably write you a full 15 typewritten page coverings this, and it wouldn't cover 16 the next item that came up. If I have to put a rule 17 in, it will be that these managers will be -- will be 18 decided by management and the operator, because 19 there's just too many things that can happen. 20 Let me run one by you that I bet you 21 ain't even thought about. We got five bingo halls 22 within five mile of Fort Hood, Texas. We have active 23 duty military and military dependents that play in our 24 bingo halls. Homeland Security considers us a soft 25 target for terrorism. 0082 1 Refund policy, that's way too broad. 2 There's too many different instances you could have 3 come up on that to specifically state. As a matter of 4 fact, I've had it come up so seldom that I don't even 5 know how to address it. You know, if we haven't 6 started a game, somebody has an emergency comes up and 7 needs to leave, I give them their money back, take the 8 cards back. You know, if I want to throw somebody out 9 of the bingo hall because they're creating a 10 disturbance, I may not want to give them any money 11 back. 12 On down then under (b)(2), we have a -- 13 and I think most bingo halls do -- what our basic 14 schedule is going to be. But like some other people 15 have mentioned, due to half-pays or whatever, we may 16 have some extra money and want to throw in and out a 17 pack game. 18 MR. SANDERSON: Can I clarify? You're 19 now moving to the fair conduct rule -- 20 MR. PRUITT: Yes. Fair conduct, yes. 21 MR. SANDERSON: -- 410(b)(2)? 22 MR. McDADE: 411(b)(2). 23 MR. PRUITT: But we may want to throw 24 in and out a pack game. So (A) and (B) both, I may 25 throw that thing in anywhere. But I have a basic 0083 1 overall schedule. And if I need to put on my program 2 that out-of-pack games may be played at any time 3 during the session, I can add that line, but I don't 4 know that being too specific on this is real good. 5 All right. Then up under -- I'm losing 6 track here -- (G)(5) (sic), to be real honest with 7 you -- and maybe you can explain it to me -- I don't 8 know what you're talking about when you say "bingo 9 cards." I have no problem with the inspection of 10 bingo balls. We do have a player come up and verify 11 that all the balls are in the machine and all prior to 12 starting a game. But I really don't know what you're 13 talking about when you say "bingo cards." Are you 14 talking about the paper that we play? I'm asking you, 15 Phil. 16 MR. SANDERSON: I can't respond at this 17 time. 18 MR. PRUITT: Because this other, when 19 you put "bingo cards" in that, I mean, that's just a 20 can of worms. Now, if we're talking about bingo 21 balls, I've got no problem with that, except that I 22 don't want to replace the whole set if I've got one 23 bad ball, because I've still got a ton of balls back 24 in the days when we were required to change them every 25 30 days. I got plenty of spare parts. 0084 1 But, like I say, I think probably 2 "bingo cards" needs to be completely removed, probably 3 in both those statements, because if we're talking 4 about the bingo paper, in realty you're saying that if 5 I got one card damaged by a player spilling the dauber 6 on it or a cup of coffee, I've got to take those 9,000 7 cards and throw them away. I don't have a big problem 8 with the other part of it, other than replacing 9 incomplete sets and bingo paper. 10 Item (A), "If a problem is discovered 11 with the bingo balls, bingo equipment, or the 12 operation of the bingo equipment, while the game is in 13 process, the game is voided and must be replayed..." 14 If I'm playing a blackout game and I've 15 called 15 numbers -- even if I've called 25 numbers -- 16 and I have a problem, any problem, if that problem can 17 be corrected and I can go forward without affecting 18 the integrity of that game, there is no need for me to 19 void that game and start over, because it's not going 20 to affect the outcome of that game in any shape, form 21 or fashion. 22 Let's see. If I discover a problem 23 after the game is over, nobody knows it but me. 24 Nobody but me will ever know it. 25 (Laughter) 0085 1 And, of course, (D) just goes back and 2 says that I've got to comply with No. (5) up there 3 that says I'm going to do what I think is right 4 anyway. 5 Most of us in the bingo business are 6 not crooks; we're business people. We take care of 7 our -- we're not trying to cheat customers, because 8 you start cheating as such, or the concept I think 9 that some of the enforcement people have, we lose our 10 customers. Our customers are not dumb. They can go 11 down the road. 12 So I think you're trying to get too 13 restrictive on us, because most of us -- and I'm 14 sure -- I mean, there's bad people out there, but I'm; 15 not sure anymore rules is going to correct the bad 16 people. But most of us are business people, and we 17 try to do what's best for our customers, because -- I 18 mean, I'm not going to cheat a customer out of $100 19 winning and run them off when they may spend $10,000 20 with me before the end of the year, you know. 21 Item (B) under caller requirements, "be 22 the only one to handle the bingo balls during each 23 bingo game." They go to pull a ball out, it slips out 24 of their hand, the blower blows it out on the floor, 25 and it happens all the time. Either a floor worker or 0086 1 a player picks it up and goes up and hands it back to 2 the caller. What is it that I'm supposed to do? Am I 3 supposed to call the session off? I mean, what am I 4 supposed to do? 5 I thought I had a problem with Item 6 (H), but I don't know that I do. We actually do 7 announce how many players there was so the cashier 8 knows how many ways to split it. And as long as it's 9 the total amount of prize -- I originally thought you 10 were saying how much was paid to each player -- but 11 total amount of prize, I have no problem with. 12 And Item (J), I think we're getting too 13 restrictive on what could be a problem and how it's 14 interpreted. If you've got a remote caller, your 15 caller stand is off by itself, you do need to be able 16 to communicate with that caller that you have sold all 17 of a given event tab, you're ready to play the game. 18 If you're going to play an out-of-pack game, you need 19 to be able to communicate with them. 20 And I think this can be too restrictive 21 because we don't know what may be available in a 22 couple of years or a year or two. I mean, we might 23 have a little -- you know, he might have a computer 24 sitting there that we can send him a little text 25 message or whatever. I think this is trying to get 0087 1 too restrictive on something that I don't think is 2 really a problem. 3 Having a presence in each bingo area 4 while the bingo game is in progress, our ushers are 5 constantly moving through the entire bingo hall non- 6 smoking area, back out through the hall, and there's 7 times there may not be anybody in non-smoking. The 8 caller has good vision of non-smoking area. There's 9 PA systems set up in there if anybody bingos. But to 10 actually say that you have to have someone in every 11 playing area gets a little restrictive. Now, I mean, 12 if you've got a hall that's got a blind area, yes, I 13 can see it. But this could be interpreted in a way 14 that would be a problem. 15 All right. Item (d), under (c) -- or 16 under (13) I guess it is -- "All pull-tab bingo event 17 tickets must be sold prior to the occurrence of the 18 event." Sitting in this room a year and a half ago 19 during an operator training class, we were told that 20 you didn't have to sell all of an event ticket prior 21 to playing the game, as long as you announced how you 22 were playing the game, because if you don't sell all 23 your tickets and you're in a time constraint, you may 24 choose to go ahead and play the game, as long as you 25 announce that, "We will call numbers until all winners 0088 1 are paid out," or you say, "We're going to play this 2 game. We still have 50 tickets. If no one wins on 3 the designated ball, there will be no payout." 4 They still have the option of buying 5 them if they want them. It's not going to change 6 anybody's ability to win or their chances to win, as 7 long as you announce prior to the game how you're 8 playing the game. So I don't really like the "all" in 9 there. And I can live with "prior to the occurrence," 10 because it's kind of hard to play unless you've sold 11 some. And I think I can live with everything else. 12 Thank you. 13 MS. JOSEPH: Thank you, Mr. Pruitt. 14 Suzanne Taylor? 15 COMMENTS ON BEHALF OF ALL SAINTS BINGO UNIT TRUST 16 MS. TAYLOR: Hello. My name is Suzanne 17 Taylor. I represent All Saints Bingo Unit Trust. 18 And first off, let me say that I agree 19 with all the previous comments. There are some items 20 I won't talk about but some that are near and dear to 21 my heart, so I would like to discuss them, and a 22 couple that nobody has mentioned. 23 402.210(e)(1), the effective date of 24 the house rules, I don't understand why that would 25 need to be on the house rule. If it's posted, it's 0089 1 obviously the house rule and it's effective. And I 2 would hate to think that everybody that maybe has 3 house rules that concur with these current rules would 4 have to go back in and remake their house rules so 5 that they could put an effective date on it. 6 The licensed organization's name and 7 taxpayer number is already posted in the hall. I 8 don't see the reason for the need to have that on the 9 house rules. Is every organization going to post 10 their own house rules? If it was a different house 11 rule, then most organizations in a hall use the same 12 house rules. So as long as they're by law, they're 13 already posting that information. 14 How players are expected -- I'm sorry. 15 No. (3), how players are expected to gain the caller's 16 attention. I have the same thing. I have some deaf 17 people in my hall. I would think that the players 18 must gain the caller or a worker's attention, would be 19 effective on No. (3) 20 The contingency plan, same problem 21 everybody else has -- too many contingencies, and your 22 house rules could go on forever and ever. 23 The acceptable payments for the 24 purchase of pull-tabs under No. (7), I don't know why 25 there couldn't be just some items that need to be 0090 1 posted somewhere in the hall, and that would include 2 the acceptable forms of purchase, the return check 3 policy, any of those other items. I don't understand 4 why that would be part of the house rule. That would 5 just be the establishment's policy. 6 Going down to item -- let's see. Going 7 down to 402.211, under (b)(2), it says the 8 availability of the prizes to be paid for each game. 9 When you go down to No. (3), it says the announcements 10 to the players of any changes to that before the first 11 game of the occasion. And if you skip over right 12 across from No. (3) to (10)(D), where it says then you 13 must announce the amount of a prize prior to the end 14 of the game if the prize amount is based on sales or 15 attendance. That's already been taken care of in No. 16 (3) when prior to the start of the game, you announced 17 any changes to your prize structure that you posted, 18 so I don't know why that would need to be in there. 19 Under (b)(4) -- no, it would be (b)(5). 20 I'm sorry -- the inspection of the bingo balls and 21 bingo cards, we already have electronic verification 22 of our winning cards. I don't know why you wouldn't 23 be able just to show all the balls on a monitor, and 24 that would take care of an inspection of the bingo 25 balls for those people that have to go upstairs to get 0091 1 to their blower. 2 And No. (6) underneath that, I wasn't 3 quite sure that the cards -- if we were talking about 4 sets of bingo cards, you know, where they are 5 cellophaned, if we were talking about the individual 6 player's card. I wasn't really sure. But even if 7 we're talking about the individual player card, if 8 they are on the last card of the game and we sell four 9 games for each of the games, I don't know why we 10 wouldn't just replace that last card that got coffee 11 spilled on it, with one piece of paper, instead of 12 giving them an entirely new book, if that's what 13 you're talking about in this particular rule. 14 (8)(A), the same thing. We have 15 electronics that go down all the time in the hall, and 16 I would sure hate to think of trying to start a new 17 game. Our paper players would absolutely revolt if, 18 because of the electronics, we had to start a game 19 over and they were going to try and play on those same 20 sheets of paper again. 21 Down under No. (10)(A)(ii), "gain the 22 attention of the caller when the player bingos," I 23 don't know -- and I even hate to say "or a floor 24 worker," because there are times that the counter 25 person might be the one to hear the bingo. As long as 0092 1 they gain the attention of a bingo worker, that would 2 be sufficient, instead of trying to get the caller's 3 attention. 4 (B) on that, the only one to handle the 5 bingo balls, I've got to go right along with J. D. 6 We've had it happen. The balls have fallen out. The 7 players have picked it up and handed the ball back to 8 the caller. And I would hate to void a game and start 9 over, specially on our rapids where we call every 10 single number in there nearly. 11 (H), announce in a clear manner, 12 audible to the players, the number and the total 13 amount of prizes awarded for that game. Our caller 14 knows how much the game is for. It might be a $750 15 game. They're not aware of how many -- if we have 16 four winners, how many of those winners are a full pay 17 and how many are a half pay. That prints up at the 18 front counter where the counter person is making the 19 payouts to those games. 20 I wouldn't want that announced. I 21 think that you go to any of the halls -- not even 22 halls -- go to Las Vegas or any other places that have 23 bingo, there's different levels. You might bingo on 24 a Level 1, Level 2, Level 3. I mean, you might be 25 playing for $10,000. You have no clue whether that 0093 1 person won the $10,000 or if they were playing on a 2 third level tier and didn't win the $10,000. And for 3 full-pay/half-pay halls, to have to stop and have the 4 caller announce, "Okay. That was a $750 game. We 5 only paid out $563 for that game," it would be a real 6 depressing thing for the bingo players in the hall, 7 and you would hurt the full-pay/half-pay halls in 8 doing that, if that's what this rule is saying. 9 We have speed nights where we play 10 speed games. And if the caller had to wait on seven 11 games to find out, for all the floor workers to bring 12 the paper up to us so that we knew whether it was a 13 full or a half pay, because it's not all on 14 electronics, it would definitely slow the games down. 15 We wouldn't be able to play the number of games we 16 need to, to get through the session in the time 17 constrains that we have. 18 On (J), we talk to the caller all the 19 time. We have constant communication. As long as 20 this was changed to say that he could not communicate 21 with a player during the bingo occasion or could only 22 communicate with the bingo workers, I would be fine 23 with that. But to say there can be no communication, 24 if you've ever been in a bingo hall, you're in 25 constant communication with your caller. That person 0094 1 is the instrument that is guiding your session, and 2 you have to let them know which way to go. It would 3 be like sending me across Austin without a map. I 4 need somebody to be telling me what I need to do and 5 where I need to turn. And that's the same thing a 6 caller is doing. They're the one driving the wheel, 7 but somebody needs to tell them what they need to be 8 doing next. 9 Having a presence in each playing area, 10 we have smoking/non-smoking. And there are times when 11 we only have two floor workers on our really light 12 sessions. And, you know, one floor worker might be up 13 getting tabs and there is a bingo, and the other 14 person runs out of there and is picking up bingos. 15 It's very difficult, and we would definitely have to 16 increase the number of employees to say we're going to 17 always have a presence in every playing area during 18 the bingo games. So it would be a definite increase 19 in our payroll to do that. 20 Under (B), not communicate verbally or 21 in any other manner the symbols needed, I don't 22 understand. As long as it would be not communicate 23 verbally to the caller, then that would be okay, 24 because you could still go and talk to the customers 25 and explain how to play a game and what they needed on 0095 1 it, as long as you weren't communicating to the caller 2 what they needed. That's where you're trying to make 3 the distinction. So as long as you added to the 4 caller, I wouldn't be opposed to that rule. 5 Establishment of procedures to address 6 disputes and availability of the procedures to the 7 players, does that mean that we're going to have this 8 in written and we're going to have it on the counter 9 so that all the players can figure out the disputes? 10 I mean, I would like first of all 11 somebody to give me something through the open 12 records, I think, that tells me all the disputes that 13 I need to find procedures for. And since I have to 14 make this available to the players, how am I making it 15 available? Do I have to have a printed format like I 16 do with my program? 17 And I've got to agree with Earl and 18 J. D., because as soon as I sell -- all pull-tabs must 19 be sold prior to the occurrence of the event. I 20 thought, "Our players are going to sit here for two 21 hours on some days when we have 10 people left in the 22 hall, because they can't play that dang game until all 23 the tickets are sold"? 24 As long as we communicate to the 25 players, either we'll continue selling tickets until 0096 1 the last number is called, or we will continue selling 2 tickets until there is a winner, or if the winner has 3 not been drawn and the tickets have not all been sold, 4 then they will not be paid, as long as we communicate 5 to them that all tickets -- there are numerous 6 sessions where every ticket has not been sold, and 7 there are sessions when we've played an event and 8 thought all the tickets were sold and one of the floor 9 workers walked up with 20 tickets and said, "Oh, I 10 didn't know I had these in the apron," you know. So 11 now all of a sudden, we're in violation and we didn't 12 even realize that we were doing anything wrong, 13 because we wouldn't have played the game if we had 14 known there were 20 tickets left. 15 Under the 402.709, I've got to agree 16 with Steve Fenoglio's comments and Earl Silver's 17 comments. 18 And if you have any questions -- and 19 Steve Bresnen's comments. 20 MS. JOSEPH: All right. Thank you, 21 Ms. Taylor. 22 MS. TAYLOR: Thank you. 23 MS. JOSEPH: Earl Markham, did you any 24 comments you would like to make? 25 THE REPORTER: I can't hear. 0097 1 MS. JOSEPH: Could you speak up. 2 MR. MARKHAM: I said all my concerns 3 have been covered. 4 MS. JOSEPH: Thank you. 5 Those are all of the witness forms that 6 I have. Is there -- Yes. Mr. Bresnen would like to 7 make an additional comment. 8 MR. BRESNEN: Yes, ma'am. 9 ADDITIONAL COMMENT ON BEHALF OF THE 10 BINGO INTEREST GROUP 11 MR. BRESNEN: Steve Bresnen on behalf 12 of the Bingo Interest Group. 13 It has just occurred to me that if the 14 rules were to become effective as they are now, there 15 will be a substantial amount of work that would need 16 to be done by every charity in Texas, if you had to do 17 the contingency plans in particular. So the day they 18 became effective, my guess is, just about everybody in 19 the state would be out of compliance with them. 20 So if you're going to go forward down 21 this track, you're going to either have to put some 22 delayed effective date or put something in there that 23 says, you know, "Have your stuff altogether by a date 24 certain" or something that gives people an adequate 25 time to do the paperwork, write the procedures, rules, 0098 1 post them, get their signs made, whatever they have to 2 do. 3 And that's the remainder of my comment. 4 Thank you. 5 MS. JOSEPH: Thank you, Ms. Bresnen. 6 Does anyone else have any other comment 7 they would like to offer? 8 If not, we appreciate your being here 9 again and offering these comments, and we will give 10 them all careful consideration. 11 At this time it is 12:40, and the 12 hearing is adjourned. Thank you. 13 (Hearing adjourned: 12:40 p.m.) 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 0099 1 C E R T I F I C A T E 2 STATE OF TEXAS ) 3 COUNTY OF TRAVIS ) 4 I, Aloma J. Kennedy, a Certified 5 Shorthand Reporter in and for the State of Texas, do 6 hereby certify that the above-mentioned matter 7 occurred as hereinbefore set out. 8 I FURTHER CERTIFY THAT the proceedings 9 of such were reported by me or under my supervision, 10 later reduced to typewritten form under my supervision 11 and control and that the foregoing pages are a full, 12 true and correct transcription of the original notes. 13 IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set 14 my hand and seal this 23rd of October 2007. 15 16 ________________________________ 17 Aloma J. Kennedy Certified Shorthand Reporter 18 CSR No. 494 - Expires 12/31/08 19 Firm Certification No. 276 Kennedy Reporting Service, Inc. 20 Cambridge Tower 1801 Lavaca Street, Suite 115 21 Austin, Texas 78701 512.474.2233 22 23 24 25